Retail Unwrapped from The Robin Report https://therobinreport.com Retail Unwrapped is a weekly podcast series hosted by our Chief Strategist Shelley E. Kohan. Each week, they share insights and opinions on major topics in the retail and consumer product industries. The shows are a lively conversation on industry-wide issues, trends, and consumer behavior. Thu, 26 Feb 2026 15:43:13 +0000 en-US hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.8.2 The Robin Report The Robin Report info@therobinreport.com Retail Unwrapped from The Robin Report https://therobinreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/RR_RU_Podcast_CTAArtboard-02-copy.jpg https://therobinreport.com Retail Unwrapped from The Robin Report Retail Unwrapped is a weekly podcast series hosted by our Chief Strategist Shelley E. Kohan. Each week, they share insights and opinions on major topics in the retail and consumer product industries. The shows are a lively conversation on industry-wide issues, trends, and consumer behavior. false All content copyright The Robin Report. Southdale Center Turns 70; Then What?  https://therobinreport.com/southfield-center-turns-70-then-what/ Thu, 26 Feb 2026 05:01:00 +0000 https://therobinreport.com/?p=132964 Southfield Center Turns 70 Then WhatRepositioning malls from single-purpose points of transaction into dynamic community forums promoting human interaction is the sustainable reinvention of irrelevant malls. But, given the ginormous price tag involved, there are only a finite number of malls destined for such rejuvenation. The vast majority will perish. ]]> Southfield Center Turns 70 Then What

America’s first indoor mall, Southdale Center in Edina, Minnesota, is celebrating its 70th anniversary this year. This birthday could be a litmus test of the viability of the traditional shopping mall. To ensure its relevance, owner Simon Properties just completed a $400 million renovation and new luxury wing, bringing together Gucci, Louis Vuitton, Moncler, Watches of Switzerland/Rolex, MaxMara, and David Yurman. Southdale now has the highest concentration of luxury retail in the upper Midwest and elevates the “luxe listings” above its mega-competitor Mall of America, just a few miles away. But the question remains: Will this capital infusion guarantee Southdale’s future as a 20th-century architectural aberration in a digital/agentic age? And will chasing the top 10 percent of spenders buy Southdale and Simon time? It is by no means a guarantee of its longevity.

Can the 70-year-old Southdale Center live up to consumers’ expectations? And the answer is: Adding a new luxury wing is not a panacea for cultural relevance; today’s malls need to deliver experience and brands that are meaningful to consumers.

In the Beginning

Southdale’s origin story is a retail case study. Funded by the Dayton Development Company, it’s widely considered to be the nation’s first fully enclosed, climate-controlled shopping mall. Austrian-born architect Victor Gruen had a different vision from Dayton’s. Gruen planned for the center to be surrounded by housing, apartment buildings, schools, and medical facilities, as well as natural amenities including a lake and a park, modeled after the commerce centers of many European cities. In 1956, he was ahead of his time; the mall became…a mall.

Gruen’s original vision, now known as mixed-use development, has become the formula for the reinvention and salvation of malls like Southdale. Repositioning malls from single-purpose points of transaction into dynamic community forums promoting human interaction is the sustainable reinvention of irrelevant malls. But, given the ginormous price tag involved, there are only a finite number of malls destined for such rejuvenation. The vast majority will perish.  

Class Distinctions

Between 1970 and 2002, over 800 shopping malls were built in America. Money was cheap, second-string suburbs were flourishing, and young consumers—baby boomers—were entering their prime earning years.  By the mid-1990s, mall numbers peaked at over 1,500 enclosed malls. Then the tide changed. Today, approximately 700 fully enclosed malls still exist, and projections suggest that another 25 percent of these remaining centers will shutter within the next five years. Analysts predict as few as 200 survivors by the mid-2030’s.

What’s the formula for mall survival? Malls are bluntly, real estate assets. And for real estate, the age-old adage “location, location, location” is the playbook. In terms of sustainability, a mall’s age, tenant mix, occupancy rates, and institutional ownership play decisive roles in defining the ABCs of property class ranking.

  • The highest performing A-class malls boast premium tenants, affluent customers, and high occupancy rates (mid-high 90 percent range). Their tenants are made up of stable, national luxury and premium brands. These properties are newer or heavily renovated, located in affluent markets, typically home to Apple stores, and many are mixed-use village spaces like The Grove.

  • B-class malls are moderate performers, plagued by failing mid-market specialty chains. With occupancy rates of 80-90 percent, they are often found in secondary suburbs and cater to value-oriented families. They are generally older centers devoid of improvements, and many are still anchored by JCPenney.

  • C-class malls are the most endangered species, with 500-600 already shuttered since the mid-1990s. Occupancies are often at or below 70 percent and are considered distressed properties. They cater to highly price-sensitive shoppers with local retailers, discounters, and non-retail services. 

Gruen’s Gospel

I believe the Gruen gospel of “placemaking” will ultimately determine the fate of Southdale and the rest of the remaining A-class malls. Their ownership is concentrated among a small number of deep-pocketed development and management companies, including Simon Property Group, Brookfield Properties, Macerich, (and to a lesser extent) SITE Centers, Taubman, and Unibail-Rodamco-Westfield.

It’s Simon Property Group and Brookfield Properties, who together own and control nearly half of A-class malls in the U.S. and they must concentrate on bringing their aging mall properties into the 21st century through additions, renovations, and tenant upgrades.

Southdale was completed in 1956, and the mall was just over 800,000 square feet. Today it is 60 percent larger at 1.3 million square feet. The mall’s haphazard expansion in 1963 and 1971, along with multiple renovations through the 2000s and 2010s, has resulted in a rather schizophrenic visitor experience. The current luxury wing is at odds with the rest of the mall. While the new single-level wing is upscale and polished, it feels like an island (or peninsula) unto itself. Visitors arriving through any of the mall’s other primary entrances will, no doubt, be wowed by the newly renovated center court. However, finding the new luxury wing presents a quandary, accessible exclusively via a second-level corridor. 

Futureproofing an Aging Mall

All the money in the world can’t save an irrelevant mall. Some centers are destined to fail in the brutal survival of the fittest. There are core fundamentals that are prerequisites in the reimagining and futureproofing of aging malls. Will Southdale measure up? 

  • Anchor Replacement: A mall’s once dominant department stores literally served as anchors and traffic generators, as well as magnets to attract desirable specialty stores. With their departure, similarly compelling anchor-like players must fill that role. A plethora of unlikely candidates are filling the bill today. They include high-end grocery stores, fitness and co-working centers, hotels, medical centers, “high experience” retailers, and even private clubs. Dick’s House of Sport, which has effectively replaced former Sears stores in several top-tier malls is an excellent example.

To Southdale’s credit, it has flexed its “anchor’s away” muscle. In 2019, on the site of a JCPenney store, a massive $43 million, 204,000-square-foot Life Time Fitness flagship dropped anchor. Billed as a three-story athletic resort, it included a rooftop beach club, pool, and even pickleball courts. Immediately adjacent is a 75,000 square foot Life Time luxury coworking development and indoor soccer field. Both are knockout examples of anchor replacement.

In 2024, on the site of a former Herberger’s department store, Southdale introduced a 25,000 square foot, two-level Puttshack, that bills itself as an “upscale, tech-infused” mini-golf experience. Immediately adjacent is Kowalski’s Market, a premier specialty grocer which should also generate repeat traffic.  Southdale’s score: 9 out of 10.

  • Retail Theater and Experience Engines: The success of the reimagined mall becomes a shared proposition between landlord and tenants. In the face of unified commerce, the continued growth of online retail, augmented reality, and generative AI, brands are being forced to up their game to get folks off the couch. Becoming fully immersed in a brand’s storytelling has become the new norm. Brands like Lego, Crayola, Build-A-Bear, and Camp have become the new “play stations,” undergoing constant reinvention aimed at lengthening the customer’s visit and creating memorable moments.

With the massive popularity of the collectables market that grew by 32 percent in 2025, select specialty retailers are cashing in. Among them, CardVault, Pokémon Center, Kura Sushi gashapon, and Pop Mart. They sit at the intersection of collecting, surprise, and social sharing. They are selling sets, series, rarities, even blind boxes that foster “the chase.”

And beyond the store purchase, often viral “unboxing” follows, driving social media sharing. These brands, and others like, them populate the halls of the Mall of America, while Southdale hasn’t hopped on that brand wagon yet. Southdale’s score: 2 out of 10.

  • Social Interaction and Brand Activation: More than ever, brands depend on popular performers and sports figures to co-promote product drops. To that end, top malls have beefed-up marketing and event teams to facilitate high-energy, revolving events to drive traffic. Southdale currently has a considerable amount of underutilized space which could be captured for such events that bring “like-minded” groups together around a shared passion. Southdale’s score: 5 out of 10.

  • Food-Forward Destinations: National restaurant chains like Applebee’s will no longer cut it with new generations, proud of their food-fixated tastes. The winning ticket includes chef-driven restaurants, multicultural food halls, and experiential dining. Chef-staged, fixed-price dinners are selling out months in advance. Even ghost kitchens are being created to facilitate the preparation of Michelin Chef-quality meals for takeout or near-instant delivery to area foodies.

Southdale’s Dining Pavilion is the ghost of its former massive food court; there are plenty of tables and chairs, but light on eats. Southdale is lacking in the fine dining experience that will lure in customers. Southdale’s score: 7 out of 10.

  • Social Infrastructure and Walkability: Too many major malls resemble fortresses, surrounded by seas of asphalt, as vehicular access and parking overrode pedestrian friendliness during the planning process. The new mall’s viability focuses on socialization, visit duration, relaxation, and immersion. Reimagined, multi-use developments are selling off excess parking to accommodate multi-family housing. Other pedestrian-centric amenities include green spaces, walking paths, water features, community gardens, and well-equipped play areas, for folks to gather, linger, meet, and work. Southdale hasn’t begun turning parking lots into parks. With an influx of multi-family residential properties and luxury services, “greening” initiatives are a must. Southdale’s score: 5 out of 10.

Prescription

While Southdale doesn’t publish its annual visits, The Minneapolis/St. Paul Business Journal reported an 11 percent increase in foot traffic following the opening of the new luxury wing, which isn’t too surprising.  Applying my “mall-metamorphosis metrics,” Southdale is an overachiever with its recent retail and lifestyle additions; however, it is clearly an underachiever in the rest of the crucial placemaking attributes. New retail is moving much faster than center owners, including Southdale, can anticipate and act on. Its relevance will depend on staying ahead of what customers want, not catching up to them.

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Eyewear Outperforms Luxury Categories https://therobinreport.com/eyewear-outperforms-luxury-categories/ Wed, 18 Feb 2026 05:01:00 +0000 https://therobinreport.com/?p=129621 Eyewear Outperforms Luxury CategoriesSuccessful eyewear rivals the versatility of today’s designer handbag collections. Customers blend moods, styles, and personal expression throughout their everyday lives. For fashionistas (and the easily bored), multiple branded eyewear is the norm, not unlike a closet full of handbags.]]> Eyewear Outperforms Luxury Categories

Why do the Kardashians always wear sunglasses?  TikTok may have its own addictive answer, but celebrity influence has given luxury eyewear renewed life for aspirational customers. While the global market for personal luxury goods stagnated in 2025, eyewear continues to outperform other categories; Bain & Co. is projecting growth of 2 to 4 percent. And there are no signs of slowing.

Is luxury eyewear a growth opportunity? And the answer is: Eyewear outperforms other categories, projected to grow two to four percent, and design innovation no longer comes from a single creative vision; it is the result of an ongoing dialogue between design, data, and culture.

Licensing Leaps

Customers can now own a piece of the celebrity-driven luxury lifestyle as wannabe style setters, whether they wear prescription glasses or not. Licensing eyewear deals have made luxury logos accessible to an expanding base of consumers, many of whom are first-time luxury buyers. This business model continues to reap rewards. EssilorLuxottica, the world’s largest eyewear company, manages licenses for luxury brands including Giorgio Armani, Brunello Cucinelli, Burberry, Chanel, and Dolce & Gabbana. In Q3 2025, it reported its best quarterly performance ever, with revenue rising 11.7 percent to €6.9 billion. The consumer investment is significant, with luxury eyewear ranging from $202 for the A$AP Rocky Ray-Ban Wayfarer Puffer to $6,721 for the diamond edition.

The allure of the logo remains a critical decision point. According to the EY Luxury Client Index 2025, 42 percent of “prestige aspirational” luxury clients buy luxury fashion as a marker of status. That said, the global success of South Korean eyewear brand Gentle Monster is a reminder that for Gen Z, eyewear is less about status and more about self-expression as a statement of identity.

As luxury brands scale up eyewear operations, including launches like Victoria Beckham Eyewear with the Safilo Group, the landscape will only grow more crowded. This market demands agility as brands compete for consumers’ wallets and eyes amid unprecedented competition through social media exposure and expansive product choice.

Eyewear as a Proxy for Luxury

Accessories have historically been entry products for aspirational luxury customers, and eyewear is no exception. An impressive 71 percent of luxury clients are primarily driven by a desire to own high-quality products. Quality and provenance matter. Persol, for example, has been crafting sunglasses by hand since 1917 with artisans at its Lauriano plant in Turin, Italy, ensuring its Craftsmanship Campaign.

Sustainability gives luxury consumers the confidence to signal purpose. Nearly one-third (31 percent) of luxury clients rank sustainability among the top five factors influencing purchase decisions. Savvy eyewear brands merge sustainability with innovation. Balenciaga’s Blackout sunglasses (€1,200, made in Italy) use Eastman Acetate Renew, combining cellulose derived from wood pulp with recycled plastic that would otherwise end up in landfills.

Eyewear is also a visual extension of a brand’s DNA. Here’s where the ephemeral influence of emotion, identity and possibility play critical roles. Longchamp, for example, says its sunglasses “reveal the allure of the Longchamp Parisienne.” Maybe that’s true, but brands sell when they excite and surprise. According to Mor Margalit, Director of Brand Merchandising at GlassesUSA.com, “Design innovation in eyewear today no longer comes from a single creative vision. It is the result of an ongoing dialogue between design, data, and culture.”

Successful eyewear also rivals the versatility of today’s designer handbag collections. Gentle Monster is redefining the category through collaborations such as Tekken 8 and its Pocket Collection with Bratz, transforming culture and community into eyewear icons. Coach x GlassesUSA.com’s limited-edition Milky Pink Frame for 2026 embraces the concept of fusion fashion, which, according to Mor Margalit, is “recognizing that people don’t dress according to one fixed aesthetic. They blend moods, styles, and personal expression throughout their everyday lives.” For fashionistas (and the easily bored), multiple branded eyewear is the norm, similar to a closet full of handbags.

Celeb collabs are table stakes for luxury brands.  Identifying eyewear-specific brand ambassadors creates emotional connections akin to those in beauty and fragrance. Orlando Bloom, for instance, is a brand ambassador for Porsche Design’s timepiece and eyewear collections.

Visionary Innovation

According to The State of Fashion 2026, smart eyewear is “poised for a breakout in 2026.” Despite Mark Zuckerberg’s infamous failed Meta Ray-Ban demo, consumer interest remains high, with waiting lists for AI-enabled glasses that take photos, record videos, make calls, play music, and access Meta’s AI assistant. Yet smart eyewear is not only about technology. BoF and McKinsey & Co. survey data show that style influences one-third of smart-glasses buyers. It’s a wake-up call and an opportunity for luxury brands to differentiate.

Eyecare is a new, cool, integral to both the fashion runway and the everyday wardrobe. Fashion and lifestyle brands without a core eyewear business may be leaving brand equity on the table. Visionary creativity is essential to capture a share of this growing market. After all, in the world according to the Kardashians, staying relevant and relatable may simply come down to how you frame the future.

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A Store Is Not a Fulfillment Center https://therobinreport.com/a-store-is-not-a-fulfillment-center/ Tue, 17 Feb 2026 05:01:00 +0000 https://therobinreport.com/?p=129616 A Store Is Not a Fulfillment CenterRetail is in a moment of transition. It is missing something fundamental: a systems thinking approach to making decisions with the operational infrastructure to support them. Asynchronous decision-making is not only a hidden cost, but it can also overwhelm a store masquerading as. Fulfillment center. ]]> A Store Is Not a Fulfillment Center

Many of today’s retail leadership decisions are smart, timely, and grounded in real customer behavior. They respond to competitive pressure, unlock new revenue streams, and make sense on management dashboards. The challenge is not the decision strategy itself. The challenge is the consequences when those decisions reach the store level.

The Risk of Quiet Erosion

Across big-box, specialty, and dollar retail, store operations and customer experience are quietly deteriorating. Store formats are not keeping up with the pressure of executing additional strategies. The teams aren’t failing, but stores are being asked to absorb a growing level of complexity without the physical space or operating models required to support it. New initiatives are layered onto formats that have not meaningfully evolved for decades. Store leaders and associates are asked to do more with less. Over time, the physical environment, operational execution, and customer experience all begin to fray.

This is the cost of asynchronous decision-making when strategy advances out of step with the store and operations designed to carry it. The impact of this disconnect is rarely dramatic. Stores do not collapse overnight; instead, erosion sets in gradually.

Do high-level strategic decisions always make retail better? And the answer is: When decisions are asynchronous, operations at the store level can implode.

Supporting the Retail Ecosystem                                                                                     

A store is a living system. Design, operations, labor, and experience are interdependent. When one system changes independent of the others, pressure builds. This may sound like a retail fundamental, but in practice, it is increasingly ignored. Strategy teams launch initiatives, operations teams adjust processes, store teams absorb the changes, but the physical box stays largely the same.

As complexity accumulates, many stores stop feeling intentional. Visual clarity diminishes, stores become cluttered, and service thins. Customers may not consciously recognize the problem, but they feel it. Shopping takes longer, and finding help becomes harder. Experiences that once felt intuitive now feel compromised.

Retail leadership can no longer treat store design, labor, and operations as downstream considerations. When space, staffing, and execution are misaligned, even good strategies become counterproductive.

Solving One Problem, Creating Another

Flexible fulfillment illustrates this tension clearly. Drive-up, order pickup, and same-day delivery fundamentally reshaped retail convenience. For many brands, including Target, these programs drive loyalty, frequency, and trust. They have become table stakes; the business impact is real and necessary.

Inside the store, however, the consequences are increasingly visible. Selling space has been repurposed for staging. Carts, bins, and coolers interrupt the front of the store. Key destination categories are pushed deeper into the building. What was once a clear shopping journey becomes a hybrid environment, part showroom and part distribution hub, without being fully designed for either.

For shoppers, this creates friction. Pathways are less intuitive. Visual storytelling is compromised. The store feels busier but less engaging. For associates, the challenge is greater. They are asked to maintain service standards, support fulfillment, and manage additional tasks with fewer labor hours and without additional space. Flexible fulfillment efficiency may have solved the transaction, but the store absorbed the operational burden. The issue is not that fulfillment can live and operate successfully inside the store; the issue is that the format and operating model did not evolve alongside it.

The Cost of “Yes”

This pattern is not isolated. Michaels offers a timely example of how additive strategies compound inside a fixed box. Following Party City’s bankruptcy, Michaels moved quickly to expand balloons, party goods, and in-store celebration offerings. Strategically, the move made sense. Demand shifted rather than disappearing. These categories drive traffic and align with existing customer missions.

Soon after, Michaels acquired key intellectual property from Joann Fabrics and reintroduced fabric, sewing, and yarn through its Knit & Sew Shop. Again, the logic was sound. The customer overlap was real. The category demand existed.

Individually, these decisions were smart. Collectively, they created strain. Each addition brought new fixtures, replenishment cycles, training needs, and service expectations. Balloons require labor-intensive fulfillment, yet most stores lack dedicated service space. Customers wait in the same old checkout lines, slowing the journey for everyone. Seasonal transitions take longer as the store struggles to flex between celebrations, craft, and core assortments. More than one colleague shared their frustration from this experience with me and described waiting more than 30 minutes to get a few balloons filled with helium.

The result is not a strategic failure. It is operational overload. When store teams prioritize speed over polish, service becomes inconsistent. The environment feels crowded rather than curated. The experience suffers not because the ideas were wrong, but because the system was never redesigned to support them.

When Stores Become Catchalls

Retailers consistently underestimate how quickly complexity compounds at the store level. Every new initiative brings operational weight. When these are layered without subtraction, stores become catchalls for strategy rather than expressions of it. This directly affects customers. In-stocks soften as backrooms strain. Visual clarity disappears as adjacencies blur. Associates are harder to find because they are fulfilling, resetting, or troubleshooting. The shopping journey becomes fragmented.

This is not an argument against innovation. Retail must evolve. Categories will expand. Services will change. The risk is not ambition. The risk is accumulation without editing. Too many retailers add without asking what must be removed, what deserves dedicated space, and whether labor and operations can realistically support the change.

What It Looks Like When It Works

Some smart retailers are proving that complexity does not have to degrade experience. Dick’s Sporting Goods is an example. The House of Sport concept is not just about size or spectacle; it is about intentional design and operational alignment. Dedicated zones allow shop-in-shops and brand partnerships to thrive without disrupting the core format. Customers are clearly directed to go for what is new. Store teams execute major resets when stores are closed, reducing friction and improving quality. New concepts integrate seamlessly into the broader environment rather than competing with it.

Alo Yoga demonstrates similar discipline in far smaller spaces. Seasonal transitions and color shifts happen quietly and cohesively. The store never feels in flux, even as product focus changes. The experience remains calm, intentional, and thoughtfully curated. This doesn’t happen by accident. Thoughtful assortment decisions curated for the space, space planning transition plans that are highly organized, and the team is deployed at the right time bring this to life flawlessly every time.

Walmart offers another instructive example. Through its Store of the Future initiative, the company redesigned up to 650 locations last year. These remodels expand pickup and delivery capacity, modernize pharmacies, widen aisles, and reconfigure checkout and service zones. Crucially, operational functions are pushed back of house rather than spilling onto the sales floor. By evolving the format and operating model alongside new strategic priorities, Walmart protects the customer’s experience while enabling associates to work more efficiently. This thinking supports where the business is headed, not where it’s been.

These retailers share one thing in common: they redesigned the system, not just the strategy.

The Discipline Retail Needs Now

Retail is entering a phase where the hardest work is not ideation. It is editing.  Winning retailers will not be those who launch the most initiatives, but those who decide which ideas deserve physical expression and redesign their stores and operating models accordingly. That means making explicit tradeoffs, investing in space where service is required, and aligning labor models with the reality of execution.

The store is where strategy becomes real. If it cannot absorb decisions cleanly, those decisions are incomplete. The future of physical retail depends less on what brands say yes to, and more on how intentionally they build environments and operations that can sustain those yesses every day.

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Why Materials Should Lead Design https://therobinreport.com/why-materials-should-lead-design/ Fri, 06 Feb 2026 05:01:00 +0000 https://therobinreport.com/?p=127575 98Join Shelley and Liza Amlani, principal and founder of Retail Strategy Group and co-author of The Material Life, as they discuss why design innovation is typically mismatched with process innovation in the fashion supply chain, and what the consequences are. ]]> 98

A complete reversal of the traditional concept-to-market approach will improve margins, speed to market, and sustainability goals. What does that look like? Materials lead the design process instead of design leading materials selection.  Join Shelley and Liza Amlani, principal and founder of Retail Strategy Group and co-author of The Material Life, as they discuss why design innovation is typically mismatched with process innovation in the fashion supply chain, and what the consequences are. Liza says, “Process innovation is the most underrated opportunity in the fashion supply chain.” Listen and learn how Lululemon, Viore, and Uniqlo know their fabrics are their competitive edge.  Many other retailers still operate with design-led processes that create costly overdevelopment. This conversation challenges everything retailers may believe about their role in proprietary product creation and margin optimization.

Special Guests

Liza Amlani, principal and founder of Retail Strategy Group and co-author of The Material Life

Shelley E. Kohan (00:03)
Hi everybody, thanks for joining our weekly podcast, Retail Unwrapped. I’m Shelley Kohan and I’m excited to welcome back Liza Amlani Welcome back.

Liza Amlani (00:15)
Thanks Shelley, I’m excited to be here!

Shelley E. Kohan (00:18)
It’s always a pleasure having you on. I always learn so much when you come on. Of course, we know you’re principal and founder of the Retail Strategy Group and co-author of a couple books, one that just came out, The Material Life. So we’re going to talk a little bit about that today. But you also co-authored The Wholesale. So welcome back.

Liza Amlani (00:36)
Thank you.

Shelley E. Kohan (00:38)
It’s an exciting time for retail. And before we jump into kind of the thought process behind the book and some of the key components of it, because I think we can all learn from that, I gotta ask you, NRF, what did you walk away with this year from the NRF? Because I saw you at the NRF for a brief moment when you weren’t doing all your moderations and speaking, so.

Liza Amlani (01:00)
Well, I have to say that NRF was a marathon as it always is, I think this one hit a bit different only because as you know, NRF Rev was something new, part of the big show, but in a different location, but same time. And what was interesting about NRF Rev is that there was this incredible focus on circularity, sustainability, returns, reverse logistics, and…

What was so wonderful was that there were conversations happening that were really meaningful and purposeful. So we have brands, retailers in the room that are really focused on those topics like sustainability and circularity and how reverse logistics impacts maybe the bigger strategic goal. And then there were also nonprofits in the room. There were ⁓

also solution providers of course in the room. And what I was excited to do at part of that show was I led three round table discussions. So the way the show was formatted was we had our keynotes and then there were breaks between the keynotes so that people could go like upstairs and it was like this huge room with all these round tables and they had experts and industry leaders to lead round table discussions.

And I do have some highlights, but I’m going to pause it for a second.

Shelley E. Kohan (02:32)
I was gonna say, I know it’s all secret stuff behind closed doors, but can you share any kind of, maybe some key takeaways, what you learned?

Liza Amlani (02:40)
Yes, I think the first thing was that returns are not just an operation problem. They are a product creation problem rooted in materials, fit and design. So think of reason codes as a great example, training employees, frontline to connect with what’s happening in the DC when sorting is happening, ⁓ having the right

return codes is very important and having the employees match return codes to ⁓ what’s happening in terms of insights going back to the Merchant Design Team, for example, if there’s an issue with fit, right? ⁓ And I think having just the use of technology to help us do that faster and better and more accurately, I think that was a really big takeaway, but.

Returns should shape how products are designed, how they’re developed and how they’re bought and right now I don’t believe that’s happening But there it can happen

Shelley E. Kohan (03:45)
I,

and it should happen and going back to your first point about sustainability, if you think about it, returns are a big sustainability issue because the higher the reports, the more stuff, the more it gets put back, then it doesn’t, I mean, it’s like, if you could solve it at the beginning design process, you can reduce ⁓ some of that impact on our planet too, right?

Liza Amlani (03:55)
yes.

Yes.

Exactly, and I think the real fix here is preventing returns instead of mitigating them. So that was my biggest takeaway from NRF Rev. Absolutely loved it. It was amazing. And then ⁓ I was lucky enough to also go to the Foundation Honors Dinner, so that was really, really nice. They honored Fran Horowitz of Abercrombie, and it was lovely. So I think it really humanized why we’re in retail in the first place, and I just, you know, just giving back to the students and…

Shelley E. Kohan (04:13)
Bye!

Of course.

Liza Amlani (04:39)
⁓ seeing how these retail executives have really embedded their journey in people and I think that is what NRF was really about this year.

Shelley E. Kohan (04:51)
That’s great. ⁓ I love that. That’s a whole different take on NRF than what I’ve gotten from a lot of other people. So thanks for sharing that. ⁓ That’s a whole other podcast. All right, so let’s talk about the material life. So first, just kind of give our audience just a little kind of high level view of what’s the book about and what is your intention with the book.

Liza Amlani (05:01)
yes. I didn’t even get into the big show, but we can do that later. That’s a whole other podcast. Yes.

So the core idea of the material life is that

the how matters more than the what. Meaning the way we go to market and create products matters more than what we’re

Now let that sit for a minute because that’s something coming from a merchant of 20 years. That’s not very common, right, for a merchant anyway.

Shelley E. Kohan (05:45)
Right.

Liza Amlani (05:48)
I’ll give you an example. Here’s what I’ve observed, having this career in retail for over 20 years, merchandising, product creation. When I was with Ralph Lauren, for example, I was never involved in the design function or the sourcing function, or I never visited a factory floor. It’s never been something that merchants really do unless they’re at a super high level.

But it is not it’s not common. So the focus is really on What is the assortment? What is how will the consumer react to the assortment? You know, what is the? execution of the merchandising strategy on the shop floor and it’s really rare that a merchant will see a factory floor and Because merchants are not exposed to this and we leave it with sourcing and product development. What’s happening is

costly industry problems like overdevelopment like excess inventory like this extended time to get to market These things are happening Because merchants spend time downstream versus upstream Yeah, so that’s really the core ⁓ I guess it’s a core message of the material life. Yeah

Shelley E. Kohan (06:50)
Mm-hmm.

That’s

great. And I know there’s so many companies out there that are really focused on product innovation, product innovation, product innovation, but you have kind of a different spin. You’re really talking about process innovation. So tell me a little bit about that.

Liza Amlani (07:30)
Now this is really the theme of the entire book is that process innovation is the most underrated opportunity in the supply chain, specifically in fashion. And what we talk about is this concept of being materialistic and implementing material direction in the product creation calendar, elevating teams to collaborate more and design into materials versus going to market.

and creating new materials, which is directly connected to sustainability initiatives. And the market’s already thinking about this because the market has already expressed that materials are the foundation of a product. Let’s say garment. Fabric is the franchise. Think Lululemon, Viore, Uniqlo, right? The market has already expressed that.

Materials are the foundation of the product and fabric is the foundation. But even if this is the case, if we look at the product creation process, typically is not required to design into these materials. The concept to market process has always been design leading when it really should be materials leading.

Shelley E. Kohan (08:51)
Right.

Wow, that’s a big change, mindset change, isn’t it?

Liza Amlani (08:58)
It absolutely is. And the way that we think about this process change, we really need to think about it across every single function in the product creation process. Whether we’re talking to sourcing, supply chain, product development, tech designers, or merchants and planners who are starting to develop a line plan architecture all the way to the assortment plan.

It’s really connecting those internal cross-functional teams to meaningfully eliminate a lot of those silos because now we are not only talking about materials at every milestone because we’re leading with materials, we are reducing significant unnecessary development because even when we think of the line plan, if we add in

you know, this is the material that we’re going to use for this capsule or this collection in the delivery, we know that that is going to be a constant and we’re not going to see rework later.

Shelley E. Kohan (10:03)
That’s great. I think so I got to reflect back on something you’ve said a second ago about merchants don’t normally visit factories. And I have to say since the pandemic.

Liza Amlani (10:10)
Mmm.

Shelley E. Kohan (10:13)
I think you have a great opportunity right now to really get this message out because CEOs are visiting factories because of everything that’s gone on with supply chain over the past five, six years. So I think it’s a great opportunity to kind of make impact on this movement. The other thing that you always talk about is you talk about this creation calendar having multiple tracks. You know, what does that mean and why is that something that we should be thinking about as retailers or brands?

Liza Amlani (10:20)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, this is a great tie-in to what we call AI, which is actually acceptable inequality. And I know I’ve talked about this in, I think, some of your classes, right? And it is about innovating the product creation calendar to include multiple tracks. So when we think about how apparel is created today, and this is really almost category agnostic, because if you think about apparel, footwear, accessories, even…

Shelley E. Kohan (10:51)
Yes.

Liza Amlani (11:11)
home decor and textiles within home. The single track calendar, it assumes that all products are equal and as such all products are created equally. But the reality check is that single tracks have their limits. And once those limits are hit, single tracks contribute to excess inventory and it overburdens vendors. So,

process innovation here is needed to involve the single track calendar into multiple tracks. And the intention of it is to misalign, well, really it’s to remove that inherent misalignment of product from its value chain. So think of it this way. If tracks are created by product type seasonality, think seasonless versus core versus seasonal fashion, and

Shelley E. Kohan (12:04)
Mm-hmm.

Liza Amlani (12:07)
design and development complexity, then the tracks can be further distinguished by the extent of digital product creation. So keep seasonal, season-less items strictly on digital since they reoccur every season or every other season. Reserve physical sampling and prototyping for like an innovation track or something, you know, highly complex. And then capsules.

are smaller than the main season. Let’s say you have ⁓ a collab with another brand. Think, you know, I mean, there’s so many other, I won’t even get into it. But think of Capsule Collections, which are smaller than the main season, so they’d need fewer touch points, so they’ll be a smaller track. And then you have Fast Track, which is triggered by market signals, launching closer to market, shorter timelines. And that track can use tactics like postponement, for example.

Shelley E. Kohan (12:44)
you

And so when you’re trying to manage, I’m not a merchant like you’re a merchant. I understand merchandising and I understand the functions of merchandising, but you’re the true merchant. So when you think about having these multiple tracks and you’re a big company, how are you managing all this? Is this easy to manage? Is there transparency? Is there digital databases that help with adjustments and flexibility and agility in these multiple tracks?

Liza Amlani (13:33)
Definitely. I think the way that we need to think about implementing multiple tracks within our current process is when you have, for example, a fast track, which is very market reactive, you’re going to have a pod to approve those. Anything that needs approving, and it’s much more simplified than your regular track calendar, so that those decisions will be faster so that you get to market faster. Because ideally, you

What does every merchant want? Full price sales, closer to market, understanding what the consumer wants, closer to the season that we’re gonna sell it. And if we take a step back and we look at what do our calendars look like today? Well, they’re at least a year. It takes 52 weeks sometimes, right, to get from concept to market, sometimes longer. And if it’s longer, it means you have overlapping calendars.

Shelley E. Kohan (14:21)
Yeah.

Liza Amlani (14:30)
and you’re working on multiple seasons at a time, it gets even more complicated. And you’re getting even further away from the customer. And what happens is you have a lot more overdevelopment, a lot more rework, a lot more guessing what the consumer wants. And then add in technology. Well, I think that teams will probably break, right? I mean, what we’re seeing today, and I’ve seen it, ⁓ you know, in some of the teams that I’ve worked with even.

recently is that we’ll have one category working on almost all digital product creation, but they’re still following the same calendar. So even though they’re designed to go faster, right, they still have to wait for approval. So that’s why in some cases you’re going to have different tracks for different types of products.

Shelley E. Kohan (15:23)
Yeah, think part of that is ⁓ it’s difficult changing the mindset. You know, can put the process in place, but I think the most difficult thing is changing the people’s mindset. ⁓ It kind of…

Liza Amlani (15:29)
yes. ⁓

Absolutely. Especially in

fashion and retail because we are so used to working in these retail silos, these highly matrixed organizations, especially with obviously the larger organizations, that thinking how we can innovate the process has to come from leadership, right? It has to come from leadership and it has to say, okay, you know, we’re just gonna find out what it, how is our culture reacting to change today?

And how do we break down those silos so that those cultures are a lot more open to innovation, to change, to implementing technology in the right way, in the right place?

Shelley E. Kohan (16:14)
It’s kind of funny, Liza, because you’ll get a kick out of this. So you just gave me a big flashback. So ⁓ back, I don’t know, I’m going to say 10 years ago, I swear to God, most of my job was trying to convince retailers to use analytics. And it was really hard because buyers would say, I know what sells. I know my customer. I want to get this. And analytics would say, don’t buy that, buy this. And trying to convince them, it was a whole.

Liza Amlani (16:19)
Ha ha.

Ha ha.

Shelley E. Kohan (16:39)
whole huge issue in changing the mindset of the buyers and I feel now you’re kind of at this crossroads on the production side.

Liza Amlani (16:48)
Definitely. And to add what you just said, and such a great point, is that today these retail cross-functional teams across every cross-function, maybe except marketing, don’t really trust the technology, right? And even though we say that they’re involved in the decision-making process, are we really understanding how each cross-function

is touched by a new technology. And I gave this example yesterday on a webinar where we talked about the implementation of a PLM. Now a PLM is like you need a great PLM, something robust where if you do start to digitize your materials, it can actually house them. It can talk to the vendor. The vendor can collaborate. Like PLM is going to help you get your product to market.

faster in the most efficient way possible. But if you’re not involving planning, forecasting, and even even merchandising, right, in how you are building the criteria to either engage with a PLM or not, then that is a massive massive miss because planning their numbers

Their forecasts need to be visible in, like, when we create our vendor orders, right? I have seen many, many duct tape together solutions that talk to this amazing PLM but it’s a mess because you’re not really engaging with all the teams that are touching it.

Shelley E. Kohan (18:24)
Yeah.

Yeah, the collaboration is so important. Let’s talk about, tell me a little bit about, there’s tons of technology out there, but tell me, how does technology play a role here and what can companies do in terms of implementing the right technology or softwares? What should they be thinking about?

Liza Amlani (18:45)
Yes.

So, you know, I can’t take credit for this particular phrase, but I do believe we need to balance the tech and touch wherever we decide to implement it. And I think it was from Nesbit’s book in like 1987, and he talks about this balance of ⁓ technology and human touch, and it’s exactly what we need today. So if we think about the self-

Checkout example. This is great example that’s very fitting for today, right? When we lean too much into the tech, it fails. Amazon Go, great example, right? They’re closing all their stores. ⁓ But when I go shopping at Walmart, there are associates in the self-checkout lane, and they help the customer through any sort of friction when they are trying to self-checkout. And there’s always friction, right?

Shelley E. Kohan (19:35)
Mm-hmm.

Liza Amlani (19:55)
But that’s where that balance of tech and touch is working. And the customer is able to choose which lane they want to go. Do they want self-checkout or do they want the human touch 100 %? So tech is supposed to be a tool. And trying to bolt technology onto outdated processes and hoping for progress is such a big waste of time and money. And I think that’s something we all need to come to terms with. So balancing that tech with

human touch, making sure that we are aligning with how our customer wants to engage with us, how our internal teams want to engage with us, and how we want to advance in things like digital product creation and digitizing material libraries. All of these things are great if they work. And if we understand, OK, do we need a librarian when we have a digital materials library? Yes, we do.

because then the design team can have help when they are looking to design into existing materials, which is something we also talk about in our book.

Shelley E. Kohan (21:03)
that’s amazing. I never even thought about it. But now that you say that, makes perfect sense. Of course you do, right? You got to be able to go through all the content quickly. And you need someone who’s proficient at that. ⁓ That’s amazing. So if you had to leave like closing thought,

If you had to say run, don’t walk, do these things, what would those things be? Would there be a few things? mean, what’s your big advice for retailers and brands out there today going into 26 and 27?

Liza Amlani (21:34)
Really understanding where overdevelopment is happening. I have talked to a few retailers that have really acknowledged that overdevelopment is happening. It’s something that we saw in our report. was the number one issue that brand and retail executives and manufacturers highlighted as a challenge, as overdevelopment as a challenge. If we think about it from a material standpoint and a product standpoint, so just separating them, I’d say…

do that first. And if you already have visibility into your overdevelopment of materials, you’re halfway there. So that’s great. But what we need to do is also understand how does that material that we’re choosing, so this is fabric, print, color, how does that journey align with product that’s being developed? If we have overdevelopment of product, let’s say after assortment lock,

We’re changing things, we’re changing colors, we’re adding. I’ve done it, I know what happens. Are we choosing, are we choosing existing materials? Is that a requirement? So really looking at overdevelopment as a whole, I think that’s really important. And that is directly going to connect with your profit, your margin, right? How much time it’s gonna take you to get to market. So it’s really going to shorten.

Shelley E. Kohan (22:39)
No, it never happens. Come on. ⁓

Liza Amlani (23:04)
and eliminate some of those things which are big problems today. It’s also, sorry, go ahead.

Shelley E. Kohan (23:08)
Yeah, and no,

no, I was just going to say that that’s, you know, reducing the time, reducing the markdowns, reducing the waste. That’s all cost of goods. That’s margin. 100 % break to the margin.

Liza Amlani (23:21)
It is.

And you and I both know, and everyone that’s going to listen to this knows, that that cost that we think is free, because we think the vendor is paying for all that extra unnecessary development, whether it is material or product, it is going to be charged back to the brand. And every CFO will agree with me that it is a line item. But we don’t see that.

Shelley E. Kohan (23:43)
Thanks

Liza Amlani (23:50)
while we’re creating the product. So there is a cost associated with working in this way. And this is exactly why we need to really dig into how we’re creating the product versus what we’re creating from a merchant.

Shelley E. Kohan (24:07)
Love it. Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on and sharing that. And of course your book, Material Life, is great. And for anyone that’s listening, I mean, I’ll toot your own horn.

But my favorite newsletter is The Merchant Life. I think it’s great, it’s always on topic, so subscribe to The Merchant Life, especially if you’re interested in all things merchant and updated, you know, processes and all kinds of fun nuggets that are in your newsletter that you put out. So thank you for helping us be better retailers and merchants and brands.

Liza Amlani (24:19)
You

Thank you.

Thanks Shelley. And you can find the Merchant Life newsletter at themerchantlife.com is where you subscribe. You can find the every newsletter on our website as well. And I post a lot on LinkedIn, so feel free to get in touch and let’s talk about materials.

Shelley E. Kohan (25:00)
Awesome, thank you.

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A Store Is Not a Strategy https://therobinreport.com/a-store-is-not-a-strategy/ Mon, 19 Jan 2026 05:01:00 +0000 https://therobinreport.com/?p=121788 A Store Is Not a StrategyHow do retailers replace transactions with emotional connection? And the answer is: Retailers need to figure out how to bridge a brand concept to a physical experience, and most are failing.]]> A Store Is Not a Strategy

Most retail strategies sound compelling on paper. Vision decks are polished. Brand manifestos are articulate. Purpose statements are thoughtfully written. But the moment of truth still happens in a physical space.

The Theory to Practice Design Gap

A customer does not experience a strategy document.  They experience (principally non-verbally) lighting, layout, materials, proportion, sound, density, and flow. They sense a brand through the nuanced way a door opens, the warmth or coldness of a fitting room, and the rhythm of how merchandise is revealed.

This is where many retailers struggle. They have not figured out how to bridge the concept of their brand to the physical experience customers feel inside their stores.

How do retailers replace transactions with emotional connection? And the answer is: Retailers need to figure out how to bridge a brand concept to a physical experience, and most are failing.

Strategy You Can Feel

Some retailers get it right. They do not rely on signage to explain who they are. They do not over-communicate. They let the interior space do all the work. When this happens, the store stops being a container for product and becomes a compelling expression of brand strategy.

The most effective retail environments translate abstract ideas into tangible decisions. Every element earns its place. Nothing feels accidental. This does not require grand gestures or expensive buildouts. It requires discipline. Tangible branding is one of the most consistent differentiators I see between brands that create an emotional connection and those that remain transactional.

Filson: Clarity Through Constraint

Filson is one of the strongest examples of creating emotional connection. Walking into a Filson store, you immediately understand what the brand values. There is no confusion about who this is for or why it exists. The materials are expressive: heavy woods, industrial metals, engraved wood hangers, and vintage props.  The store feels purposeful, grounded, and confident without being loud.

Nothing in the environment feels decorative for decoration’s sake. Displays feel built, not styled. The restraint is intentional. Product density is controlled. Each item has room to breathe, reinforcing the idea that these goods are meant to last. Even the lighting plays a role. It is warm but not theatrical. Functional, not dramatic. The lighting does not compete with the product or the story. It supports it.

Filson’s stores succeed because they do not try to say everything. They say the right things clearly and repeatedly through physical choices. The result is a space that feels authentic rather than performative. Customers may not be able to consciously articulate these details, but they absolutely feel them. That feeling creates trust. And trust creates loyalty.

Faribault Mill: Heritage Without Nostalgia

Where Filson leans into rugged utility, Faribault Woolen Mill approaches physical storytelling through warmth, continuity, and pride in craft. The Faribault Mill store does not overwhelm the customer with history, yet history is present everywhere. Archival elements are integrated into the environment. Materials feel tactile and familiar. There is a sense of care in how the space has been assembled.

What stands out is not nostalgia, but confidence. The store does not feel like it is living in the past. It feels like it knows exactly where its legacy comes from and is comfortable carrying that forward. Merchandising reinforces this confidence. Product stories are layered subtly into displays. Fixtures feel collected rather than installed. The space invites exploration without forcing it. Faribault’s strength is its ability to create emotional resonance without spectacle. The store feels human, and that humanity stays with the customer long after they leave.

Physicality Matters

The most compelling physical retail environments create connection before conversion. They invite customers into a world rather than pushing them toward a rack. This is not about theatricality or trend-chasing. It is about coherence.

Customers do not need stores to be perfect. They need them to feel intentional. They want to understand the brand and whether it aligns with their values. When a store answers that question clearly, customers are far more likely to return. Filson and Faribault Mill succeed because they respect the intelligence of the customer. They trust the space to communicate without over-explaining.

Retailers often underestimate how much customers rely on physical cues to decide whether a brand is worth their time, money, and loyalty. In an era where consumers are inundated with options and messages, physical retail still offers something digital cannot fully replicate: immersion. A store correctly designed can slow a customer down. It can create focus. It can make a brand tangible in a way no campaign or website ever will.

But this only works when the space is aligned with the overall brand strategy. Too many retailers treat store design as a backdrop rather than a core expression of the brand. When fixtures, lighting, layout, and visual merchandising are disconnected from the brand’s point of view, the result is a space that feels generic, even if the product itself is strong. Customers sense that disconnect immediately.

Scaling tangible branding becomes more complex for larger retailers. The challenge is not knowing what “good” looks like; it’s figuring out how to deliver it consistently across dozens or hundreds of locations. Scale often introduces compromise. Cost pressures increase. Speed becomes a priority. Standardization creeps in. Over time, stores can lose nuance and individuality.

Scale does not have to mean homogenized sameness. The retailers that succeed at scale identify a small number of non-negotiables. These are the elements that must remain consistent because they carry the brand’s emotional weight. Walmart does this with pallets in the aisle that highlight great deals because their customers expect this.  HomeGoods merchandising can feel messy, but it works because their customer wants to treasure hunt. Everything else can flex.

From Transaction to Connection

Retailers who want to deepen their connection with their customers must start treating physical space as a strategic asset rather than an operational line item. This means asking four focused questions as part of the branding exercise.

  1. What does our brand stand for?
  2. Which physical elements best express that?
  3. What can we remove to make that story clearer?
  4. Where are we adding noise instead of meaning?

The answers will not be the same for every brand. They shouldn’t be. But when retailers get this right, stores stop being places customers visit out of habit. They become places customers choose to return to because they feel something worth experiencing. And that feeling is what turns retail from transactional to enduring.

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A Look at Retail Through a New Lens https://therobinreport.com/a-look-at-retail-through-a-new-lens/ Tue, 23 Dec 2025 05:01:00 +0000 https://therobinreport.com/?p=115456 A Look at Retail Through a New LensThe main floor of Bloomingdale’s New York locations offers a dazzling experience for shoppers intoxicated by jewelry, cosmetics, and checkerboard floors. In fact, you could say it’s downright surrealist.]]> A Look at Retail Through a New Lens

Editor’s note: It’s the season for reflection, and we turned to design critic Julie Lasky for an atypical look at retail design in a reverse-engineered study on aesthetic inspiration. She pairs a few well-known retail brands with well-known art masterpieces and observations on what’s hidden in plain sight.  Enjoy this holiday look into retail and art appreciation.

By way of prelude, several masterpieces could have served as mood boards for modern retailers. Great artists earn their reputations because of their power to capture a moment, an experience, or a style. Even when such works don’t actively contribute to the look of today’s world, they are shared references that can’t help shaping the way contemporary interiors are designed and seen. Here are a few examples, all spotted in New York City.

LoveShack Fancy and Jean-Honoré Fragonard

Step into the pink and floral world of any LoveShackFancy boutique, and what do you see? Girly-girl dresses and garlands of roses, and maybe, in your mind’s eye, the image of a young woman on a swing? You would be excused if the ultra-feminine fashion retailer sparked a recollection of The Swing, a famously romantic painting by the 18th-century French artist Jean-Honoré Fragonard. The central figure in that classic work is wrapped in a billowing, lace-trimmed, rose-colored gown as she floats dreamily through the air in a private grove. A carpet of blossoms lies at her feet. So does an adoring young man.  Has anyone ever improved on Fragonard’s interpretation of “Love” and “Fancy” (though admittedly, “Shack” suggests a different vibe)? Both the Rococo painting and the modern store are nooks of indulgence, places where one is always young and the season is always springtime. 

Love Shack

SKIMS and Giorgio de Chirico

Rafael de Cardenas may not have been thinking of Giorgio de Chirico’s 1927 painting The Shores of Thessaly when he designed the SKIMS flagship boutique on Fifth Avenue, but come on. In both shop and canvas, architecture is treated like anatomy and anatomy like architecture, with sensuous forms and a chalky palette.   

Skims

C.O. Bigelow and Norman Rockwell

The oldest continuously operating pharmacy in New York, C.O. Bigelow, on Sixth Avenue in Greenwich Village, is a wood-wrapped time capsule that was founded in 1838 as the Village Apothecary Shoppe. “Legend has it that Thomas Edison soothed his burnt fingers with Bigelow’s balm whilst testing an early prototype of his light bulb,” the website recounts. It was 88 years later that Norman Rockwell illustrated a similar interior in his 1926 advertisement for Dixon Ticonderoga pencils, but both environments are emissaries from the same land of Mom-and-Pop nostalgia. 

Bigelow

Printemps and Antoni Gaudí

Last March, Printemps, the Parisian luxury emporium, opened on One Wall Street, in a 1930s building that formerly housed the Bank of New York. “It is not a department store,” insisted Laura Gonzalez, who designed Printemps’s 10 highly differentiated and highly decorated spaces. The exuberance, the audacity, the sculptural curves — as in the building’s restored Art Deco Red Room, now a shoe salon — evoke the delirious originality of the Spanish architect and designer Antoni Gaudí (1852-1926). While Gaudí just preceded Art Deco, he shared the movement’s emphasis on nature, craft, and ornamentation.  

Printemps

Bloomingdale’s and William Girometti

The main floor of Bloomingdale’s New York locations offers a dazzling experience for shoppers intoxicated by jewelry, cosmetics, and checkerboard floors. In fact, you could say it’s downright surrealist, especially if you compare it with Portrait of an Unknown Woman, a 1972 work by the Italian painter William Girometti. The blindfolded subject reminds me of my own experiences in Bloomies, endlessly looking for the exit. 

Bloomingdales

The main floor of Bloomingdale’s New York locations offers a dazzling experience for shoppers intoxicated by jewelry, cosmetics, and checkerboard floors. In fact, you could say it’s downright surrealist.

RH and Paul Vredeman de Vries

RH began humbly as Restoration Hardware, a Eureka, Calif., supplier of vintage trimmings that opened in 1979. Since then, its name has shrunk, but its offerings have expanded mightily, and you can find branches in 104 locations in 96 cities, including a 90,000-square-foot flagship in Manhattan. Displaying furniture in commanding venues was part of the grand plan of RH’s CEO, Gary Friedman. The Meatpacking District building’s soaring central atrium with fluted columns is a fitting temple of commerce — or maybe a church? Compare the awe-inducing proportions to those of the Flemish painter Paul Vredeman de Vries’s Interior of a Gothic Cathedral from 1596-1597.

RH

Tuckernuck and Pierre Bonnard

Designed by CeCe Barfield, the Tuckernuck clothing and accessories store on Madison Avenue has a cozy, pastel, and patterned domesticity that is reminiscent of the interiors painted by the French Post-Impressionist artist Pierre Bonnard. A sun-lit bay with mint green walls, tabletop goods, and a rack of printed fabrics projects a strong family resemblance to the breakfast room shown in Bonnard’s Interior with Head, from 1914-1915.

Tuckernuck 1

B&H and Charles Sheeler

B&H was founded in 1973 as a photography retailer. It is now a photo, video and audio behemoth on Ninth Avenue, with more than 400,000 products. The interior is 100 percent functional — its most notable feature is a conveyor belt running through all three floors — but that doesn’t prevent it from calling up associations with the paintings of Charles Sheeler, including Sky and Earth (1940). A self-taught commercial photographer before he became a painter, Sheeler documented U.S. industry in the mid-20th century in a style called “Precisionist.”  Notice the strong use of parallel lines in both cases. 

BH
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Urban Outfitters’ New Store Design Is Far from the Mark https://therobinreport.com/urban-outfitters-new-store-design-is-far-from-the-mark/ Tue, 02 Dec 2025 05:01:00 +0000 https://therobinreport.com/?p=111402 Urban Outfitters New Store Design Is Far from the MarkUrban Outfitters is launching a new store experience—one they insist is driven by “customer insight and market preferences.” Walk in and the whole thing feels less like a modern retail vision and more like a 90s Limited Too reboot that nobody asked for. ]]> Urban Outfitters New Store Design Is Far from the Mark

Urban Outfitters is launching a new store experience—one they insist is driven by “customer insight and market preferences.” Walk in and the whole thing feels less like a modern retail vision and more like a 90s Limited Too reboot that nobody asked for. By year-end, Urban plans to open three of these new stores, with seven more coming in 2026. But instead of winning Gen Z over, the redesign risks pushing them further away.

In the revamp, Urban is expanding the footprints of its in-house brands—BDG, Out from Under, and Standard Cloth—calling them “outfitting essentials.” The problem? Gen Z is already skeptical of UO’s in-house labels, and many of these shoppers say the prices don’t match the quality. Choosing to spotlight more high-priced, low-durability private-label clothing while ignoring the iconic name-brand staples—like Levis and Polaroid—that built Urban’s original credibility just widens the gap.

Then there’s the store layout. Urban calls their new modular fixtures “responsive,” designed to shift with trends and seasons. But the setup looks like a discount trade show floor: temporary, flimsy, and anything but premium. For a generation that values authenticity and thoughtful design, this reads as yet another attempt to chase vibes instead of creating an authentically desirable product.

About the “brighter, more spacious fitting rooms,” Urban brags, “enhanced experience.” Gen Z says sensory overload. Here’s the deal: Urban Outfitters claims they’re listening to consumers. But if they truly want to reconnect and improve, the answer might be simpler: Bring back the real staples. Bring back the brands. Bring back the Levis.

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An Industry Manifesto: The Antidote to Retail Boredom https://therobinreport.com/an-industry-manifesto-the-antidote-to-retail-boredom/ Wed, 22 Oct 2025 04:01:00 +0000 https://therobinreport.com/?p=99253 An Industry Manifesto The Antidote to Retail BoredomIn their quest for scale, many legacy retail brands have transitioned from curators of wonderment to experts in expansion and operational effectiveness. Public listings, expansion mandates, and cost-cutting initiatives can propel these operators into performance engines by managing expenses through operational effectiveness. The smart operators blend concept innovation with performance. ]]> An Industry Manifesto The Antidote to Retail Boredom

What happened to the retail store experience? Fifty years ago, when entering this retail design profession, I was told that “Retail Is Theater.” Brick-and-mortar retail leaders need to ask themselves what business they are in: retailing, hospitality and entertainment, or a transactional relationship? And then they need to ask: Will I matter in five years?  This industry needs to discover insights from outside its sector and explore the network of unique destinations that are uniquely merchandised, designed, and operated with a heavy dose of local wonder. The hospitality and entertainment industries figured this out a long time ago.

The Future of Experience

I was privileged to contribute to ‘The Future of Experience,’ The Sybarite Report 2025/26.  Along with 18 top thought-leading thinkers and practitioners, we explored 45 retail stores that are not merely points of transaction but cultural landmarks: places where history, creativity, and community converge. Such destinations remind us that retail at its best is about discovery, theatre, and emotional connection—experiences that root themselves in memory and meaning long after the purchase has been made. Sybarite offers readers of The Robin Report a complimentary download of this thoughtful report via this link.

Collectively, we explored the conundrum that most retail offerings aren’t necessities, which begs the question: What makes them matter to consumers? The answer lies in identifying the elusive formula of relevance and meaning, not just in a product or object but in the narrative and the experience it offers. It’s about making the physical store a place of social relevance, where newness is always happening—meaningful, engaging, and worth one’s time and mental space. To order your free copy of The Future of Experience, register here.

In their quest for scale, many legacy retail brands have transitioned from curators of wonderment to experts in expansion and operational effectiveness. Public listings, expansion mandates, and cost-cutting initiatives can propel these operators into performance engines by managing expenses through operational effectiveness. The smart operators blend concept innovation with performance.

The Failure of Efficiencies

As we know, many old-world retailers — but not all — have lost their unique DNA that defined their relevance before they chose to pursue profit through scaling, mergers, and operational optimization. Granted, investing in innovation, newness, or potentially breakthrough experiences and marketing strategies can be intimidating and even risky. But it has become abundantly clear that managing old-world traditional retail formats through operational efficiencies and expense management is no longer enough to survive. It may delay the decline but not lead to organic growth in competing for market share against new retail formats worldwide. A gradual decline in market share or the hearts and minds of your core customers can be a side effect of operational “optimization” that prioritizes efficiency over the essence of what makes nonessential retail compelling.

In their quest for scale, many legacy retail brands have transitioned from curators of wonderment to experts in expansion and operational effectiveness. Public listings, expansion mandates, and cost-cutting initiatives can propel these operators into performance engines by managing expenses through operational effectiveness. The smart operators blend concept innovation with performance. 

Efficiency and scalability are critical for growing conventional essential retail categories, but such uniformity is antithetical to the nonessential retail sector. The best in the industry have always been about aspiration, discovery, and establishing long-lasting emotional connections. When hard metrics become the industry bible, and the soft metrics become subordinate or disappear altogether, the soul of the store brand withers. In a world where most retailers sell merchandise that few need, and most everything is available at our fingertips 24/7, consumers are seeking reasons to visit, spend time, and shop in the built environment. Delivering endless aisles of sameness is not just uninspiring—it’s also discouraging to a customer with so many other options and choices. 

Searching for Socially Relevant Retail

The most resonant, broadly defined retail, hospitality, and entertainment destinations today are those that curate and cultivate a complex balance between the offer, the delivery, the context of the place, and the combined experiences they create.

Consider the redesigned Tiffany New York flagship as an iconic experience. There are many other examples around the world across all types of retailing and hospitality brands that have this seductive blend of inspirational retail and entertainment. Look at Eataly and the Restoration Hardware flagships around the world. They have become destinations with restaurants, hotels and even yachts. Dick’s Sporting Goods House of Sports’ 100,000 square-foot centers celebrate sports and high performance. The Tin Building in New York is an iconic culinary experience. Le Bon Marché in Paris is a cultural and socially relevant retail experience. The Grove in Los Angeles is a pioneer in an outdoor mixed-use experience. And look at any Porsche driving center or dealership: you can grab a snack, have lunch or dinner, take a test drive with instructions, shop branded merchandise, and socialize with your brand tribe. 

In Hollywood, the globally famous Hollywood Bowl, a 20,000-seat amphitheater, is a seamless combination of a pre-show experience that lasts two to three hours, featuring shopping, dining, and socializing, followed by a three-hour show. It is a socially relevant retail experience, capturing a share of time and heart and, therefore, a share of the wallet.

Think of Starbucks’ Reserve Roasteries as reimagined retail role models. They are not formulaic rollouts; each location is deeply embedded in local identity through design, product, or storytelling. It’s a reinvention of global branding—where branded destinations speak to the world at large yet feel unmistakably of their place.

Old World vs New World Consumerism.

There is an accelerating differentiation between transactional retailers (think Costco, Amazon, Alibaba in China, CVS), offering essential necessities, with those retailers competing for market share by selling nonessential discretionary merchandise, and for that matter, across all forms of entertainment and hospitality. This is precisely why examples of Old-World retailers are stalled, with the most obvious being the American department stores. 

We cannot help but rue the demise of the American department store. It was once the ultimate curator of lifestyle and socially relevant, boasting a rich history of creativity that represented its unique sense of place. In their glory days, department stores represented the most defining and enduring retail values, cementing their relevance.

Many old-world retailers have also lost their commitment to their narrative, the story that binds together everything they do. The traditional retail industry’s preoccupation with sales per square foot overlooks a more meaningful metric: share of time—the actual currency of engagement. If people are not eating, sleeping, or working, they are likely spending time on various experiences. This is retail’s new playing field—not just selling goods but capturing minutes, hours, or even days and evoking emotions to create memories.

The Currency of Relevance

A significant way to remain relevant is in a store’s physical experience. Retailing is a fast-paced and ever-changing business. Brands, trends, merchandising schemes, and visual messaging are constantly evolving. Allowing a store to grow outdated over five to ten years sends a message of not caring, a lack of relevance and newness, and a retreat from the business. Refresh, rethink, renovate, and update on a continuous cycle.

Maintaining relevance and newness is not a seasonal proposition. It is an operating strategy. Keep the store physically compelling and programmatically alive. Bring people something they have not seen, felt, or thought about anywhere else. That is the foundation of share of mind—and ultimately, share of wallet.

Excellence Lives in the Details

Amidst the excitement around “experience,” we must not fall into the trap of meaningless design spectacles. True excellence is driven into every detail as a set of non-negotiable standards and executed with operational excellence; no detail is too small.

Transactions should be seamless. Fitting rooms should feel like personal sanctuaries. Cleanliness, sightlines, lighting, temperature, scent, music, world-class storytelling, and visual merchandising — these are not afterthoughts. They are a store’s unique signature.

Trained service and staff who have been instilled in the art of anticipation. While costly, these details deliver beyond expectations. They are fundamental necessities. Retailers often ask if such gestures “convert to sales.” But that is the wrong question. The right question is: “Did it matter? Did it connect? Did it build a reason to return?”

Creativity Is Connected

For nonessential retail to continue evolving, it must transcend its traditional playbook, drawing inspiration from best-in-class mixed-use villages, hospitality, cruise ships, food and beverage, and entertainment sectors. The Four Seasons model offers a powerful parallel. Each hotel reflects its setting—mountains in Chiang Mai, savannahs in Kenya, and beaches in St. Barts—while religiously maintaining standards that establish trust and exceed expectations on every visit. Staff are trained in the art of anticipation, not just service. This combination of consistency and surprise builds love, brands, and trust.

Too few retailers operate this way. But those who do—Hermès, Apple, RH, Le Bon Marché, and the Tiffany flagship—are not just surviving. They are leading because they understand that experience is not a campaign but a culture.

Leadership with Courage

An iconic architect once said, “It takes a great client to do great work.” The consulting industry can only take a client so far, borrowing from an abundance of other experts who expound upon and replay what’s new, who is doing what, why it matters, and how their thought leadership positions are the best and brightest. The role of the business strategist, retail and merchant consultant, designer, and architect is critically important as a catalyst to use the expert tools in the retailer’s toolbox. These alchemists facilitate the exploration and creation of uncompromising, discerning solutions that can be considered and implemented.

Ultimately, it requires an inspired leadership team, ownership, a board of directors, and developers to lead with a viable vision and a conviction to innovate in creating, regaining, and maintaining relevance. Courage is not a cliché; to matter, informed and inspired leadership is not a nice thing to have; it’s a requirement to survive.

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Why Traditional Retail Stores Are Missing Return on Experience https://therobinreport.com/why-traditional-retail-stores-are-missing-return-on-experience/ Fri, 17 Oct 2025 04:01:00 +0000 https://therobinreport.com/?p=98761 50When you are an architect who works on projects around the world, your perspective about American retail changes through a refined filter. Kevin Roche, Founder of Roche Design Strategy, has the advantage of understanding firsthand the power of Return on Experience (ROE).]]> 50

When you are an architect who works on projects around the world, your perspective about American retail changes through a refined filter. Kevin Roche, Founder of Roche Design Strategy, has the advantage of understanding firsthand the power of Return on Experience (ROE). He believes traditional retailers face an uncomfortable truth: Legacy KPIs are measuring the wrong things entirely. The most successful retail destinations have quietly augmented traditional metrics with something more elusive: ROE. Join Shelley and Kevin as they discuss innovators like Le Bon Marché (a TRR Retail Radical) that invests half a million euros in evening concerts with no direct sales conversion tracking. Dior’s Paris flagship operates a museum with paid admission. And Restoration Hardware (another Retail Radical) builds luxury hotels and operates yachts. These are calculated investments that require a decade or more to mature funded by patient capital. They explore the fundamental question confronting retailers: Are they in the hospitality and entertainment business or the transaction business?  The stores winning today don’t sell products—they orchestrate experiences so compelling that customers join the brand rather than simply buy from it. Yet most retail boards remain trapped in short-term thinking, unable to make the courageous leap toward investments that won’t show ROI or ROE for years.

Special Guests

Kevin Roche: Founder, Roche Design Strategy

Shelley E. Kohan (00:05)
Hi everyone, and thank you for joining us on Retail Unwrapped. I’m Shelley Kohan, and I’m thrilled to welcome back Kevin Roche, who has been on the podcast previously. And also, ⁓ you’ve written many articles for The Robin Report, which is great, but you are a globally recognized design retail strategist. With over, am I allowed to say how many years, Kevin?

Kevin Roche (00:30)
We’re approaching 50 now.

Shelley E. Kohan (00:33)
50 years. ⁓ And you’ve

done so much work with iconic brands in our industry. You have shaped the whole idea around experiential retail. You have worked in retail, hospitality, mix use spaces. And one of my favorite things is that you are head of design and construction at LVMH’s Selective Beauty Group. You’ve worked with DFS Group.

Le Bon Marché, which by the way, Kevin, I don’t know if you know this, if you saw our announcement earlier in the week, a couple of weeks ago is that Le Bon Marché is one of our retail radicals. And most of that is based on that amazing design experience there. So I’m sure that ⁓ you had a part in that as well. So some of our listeners may not know you personally or know you, but they have certainly experienced your work.

Kevin Roche (01:28)
Well, thank you, Shelly. Let me just make one correction. was the LB Selective Retail Group. You said Beauty Group. so, Selective Retail, yeah, which includes Bob Marche, Sephora, DFS Group, now La Samaritaine is part of that group.

Shelley E. Kohan (01:36)
Select a retail, yes.

That’s great. So welcome, and we’re excited to have you here. And we’re going to be talking about this kind of idea that you have about blurring the lines of consumer behavioral patterns in retail. And Robin and I used to always talk about the old world versus the new real retail. So when we think about the physical stores and this kind of inconsistent experiences across the locations.

That’s of the past, the old world, to this new world of sitting on a beach with an iPad or a mobile device and seamlessly shopping, you know, through a great experience. But I believe that in your most recent article that you wrote with The Rotten Report, you talk specifically about blurring these lines between retail, hospitality, and all forms of entertainment, food, beverage, sports, leisure. So why don’t we start with kind of just with that point.

Kevin Roche (02:43)
Sure, well thank you. And again, thank you for having me, Shelley. ⁓ please say hello to Robin when you speak to him next. I miss seeing him and hearing him on the reports, but I’m sure he’s doing well. You know, I think back about this idea that I’ve been feeling for a long time when we wrote the article about this idea of everything’s kind of blurring and melding together. And I remember 25 years ago, meeting with the Tommy and Bahama people and they were opening restaurants.

in their stores, right? It was like, does that sound familiar to what’s going on today? ⁓ So sometimes there’s nothing really new, but everything just continues to evolve in these dynamic ways that we’re dealing with today. I was in London just a few ⁓ weeks ago and I was meeting with a multi-brand retailer. I can’t really say who and what category, but

super super luxury but you know entry price points all the way up to very expensive goods. So we were going to build a new flagship and you know we wanted to have all forms of entertainment, all forms of hospitality, cultural events, art, demonstrations, private dining rooms, private apartments and the list goes on.

And how would you do this? Because what’s working for us in the past, we don’t believe is going to work in the future. And this is a group that has stores in Europe and across the US. I don’t believe they’re in Asia yet, at least not yet. Japan probably could be on the list. So we’re going be given up when they say nothing really.

And we think that the core business is only a part of our future revenue stream, but we don’t expect to make money from these future additional attractions that we’re adding to the business. And we began to talk about, again, this idea of old world versus new world consumerism.

this idea that this acceleration of the differentiation of what I call necessity retail, right? I have to go to Costco or I have to go to the supermarket or ⁓ I have to go to CVS drug or today.

Shelley E. Kohan (04:59)
Yep.

you

Kevin Roche (05:09)
you kind of say, I have to go to Amazon to buy versus things. It’s kind of necessity consumerism versus the non-essential necessities that might be, everything else might be considered a luxury if you don’t need it. It’s a form of luxury. And so…

Shelley E. Kohan (05:11)
Ha.

Yeah.

Well,

two things, Kevin, real quick. I want to bring up something because I want to follow up on something you said. Well, two things you said. One about the monetary aspect of what you’re working on not relating directly to sales specifically. But also you mentioned Tommy Bahamas. And I’m going to ask you a question that you absolutely don’t know the answer to, which is, do you know what a hot date for me and my husband is?

We go to Tommy Bahamas in New York City and we sit there and we listen to the guitar player at the bar and we have dinner there. And I don’t spend a cent in the retail store down below. Sometimes I do, but mostly I don’t. But you know what I do do? Every time I’m somewhere, resort, just on vacation in Vegas, know, on vacation, I go into Tommy Bahama and I’m buying a lot of stuff.

Kevin Roche (06:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thank

Yeah, yeah, mean, that’s that, you know, there’s a saying, I don’t know, I’ve had it in my head for a long time. I don’t know if I made it up, I know where it came from. People don’t buy brands, they join them.

Shelley E. Kohan (06:27)
That’s right, and that’s so true. And then the other thing I want to talk to you about is you started talking about these essential retailers and this kind of transactional. So when I look at our mega brands, our mega retail brands out there, Walmart, Amazon, Alibaba, Costco, here’s what I notice. Those retailers are very, very focused on essential transactional product.

But what they’re making a big play in right now is non-essential fashion items. And so what they’re doing is they’re making a tremendous impact of their indirect competitors who focus or specialize in non-essential fashion world.

Kevin Roche (07:07)
Yes. mean, I mean, that’s, I mean, again, I think these lines are blurring between what is essential and non-essential and preparing some of my notes. You know, I talked about, you know, the, some of these, what I’ll call category concepts that I think are, you know, really spectacular ideas such as Ulta, Boot Barn. You know, I love Boot Barn. ⁓

Shelley E. Kohan (07:35)
Love Booborn.

Kevin Roche (07:36)
Yeah, know, the Dick’s

Sporting Goods, ⁓ know, tractor supply. I mean, they’re coal, right? And ⁓ they’re not essential, but they’re, they’re, you know,

I think dominating category

Shelley E. Kohan (07:54)
Boot Barn was a retail radical last year and I won’t tell you how many boots I have from Boot Barn because it’s kind of ridiculous but it’s a very quirky, great experience ⁓ in that store model. So I think when we look at kind of this blurred, you know, lines of retail…

Kevin Roche (07:57)
Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Shelley E. Kohan (08:12)
We’re seeing consumers, they’re just so inundated. They’re multitasking, multi-experience. So I think that’s a big part of what we’re seeing in terms of consumer shopping, right?

Kevin Roche (08:24)
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, I think about this 24 7 idea that, you know, you can buy everything in the palm of your hand. You can buy 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you can sit at a concert in during an intermission or a sports and you can look at your phone and you can buy something. And so, you know, it’s just it’s it’s it’s have this idea that we

eat where we shop, we shop where we eat, we eat and shop where we’re entertained, that all these things are continuing to blur. You used Tommy Bahama.

maybe a hundred restoration hardwares around the world, but I’ve never, I’ve never bought a restoration hardware product. Not yet. Anyhow. Do we belong to that tribe? No, not really. But you know, we’re on the fringes, you know, of it. And so it’s this idea of what business am I in anyway? Am I in the furniture business? Am I in the, you know, Hawaiian sports shirt business or?

relationship business and I think that’s one of the key questions that you know leadership you know has to deal with. I read this book back in 2008 that just I keep it on my desk. I have it right here on my left. It’s got marks on it, paper clips and so forth. It’s all I use as a reference. was written in 2008 by ⁓ Robert Bruner and Stuart Emery. It’s called Do You Matter? And there’s one quote in there that I think just continues to resonate.

Shelley E. Kohan (09:52)
Ha ha.

Kevin Roche (10:05)
Don’t sacrifice the experience for growth. You drive growth from the quality of the experience. Which, you know, kind of is upstream or against the current or the tide of traditional, you know, retail mentality where the word retail to me, you know, it kind of speaks as a transactional business. I wish I had a better word.

Shelley E. Kohan (10:31)
Yeah.

Kevin Roche (10:31)
retail then because it it’s a store and we sell stuff right versus a place we go to spend our time our social time to to meet people to entertain to have a day to go to dinner to shop to watch a film to

to be among the people of like interest. These things are becoming more and more seamless and it’s happening at lightning speed.

Shelley E. Kohan (11:05)
It’s so true is I want to go back to restoration hardware. have to bring this up. They just opened their flagship store in Paris a week ago, two weeks ago. ⁓

Kevin Roche (11:10)
Sure. Yeah. I was there. I was

there, yeah, maybe two weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shelley E. Kohan (11:18)
I’m jealous. I am so jealous because ⁓

I only saw pictures and videos. I haven’t been there yet. ⁓ But I can’t believe the amount of talk about a experience that kind of is like the level. So you look at RH and you look at its founding principles and where it is today and you look at Tiffany when LVMH brought Tiffany, I said home run, home run, home run. So you have these companies that

Kevin Roche (11:39)
Yeah, yeah.

Shelley E. Kohan (11:46)
you know, have these rising tides, right? That really understand and get this.

Kevin Roche (11:49)
Right,

Right. I think, you know, there’s a lot of, you know, folks that on the peripheral will challenge or question the racial and hardware, can they make money? What’s he doing? You know, these big hotels, et cetera, planes, know, yachts, et cetera. I don’t think it’s a whole lot different than Ralph Lauren telling a story, having an authentic real narrative. ⁓

Or if it’s not authentic, you believe in it so much that it becomes authentic. And you’re committed to an excruciating amount of execution and detail that it becomes an authentic narrative. And then people join the brand, they don’t buy the brand. And you become part of that Ralph Lauren tribe. And getting a reservation still today at the Ralph Lauren in Paris on the left bank is, you you just can’t call up and walk in.

it’s still a good reservation. so, how you convert those to sales, mean, Ralph Lauren Clitter is in the fashion business, but he used hospitality and a whole host of services to engage in entertainment for share of time, share of mind. I think what’s interesting about restoration is they are blurring the lines between what business am I in anyway? Am I in the furniture business?

To me, their furniture business is an end result ⁓ of what they’re doing.

I think the key luxury brands, hotel groups absolutely get this. Ralph Lauren gets it, Dior gets it, the new Tiffany flagship in Tokyo and Paris get it. They have cultural events, have demonstrations, they bring the engravers from the back to the front. They have price points from 500 to 5,000 to 50,000. They have art, they cultural events. They have the Cafe Blue, which people are lying to.

get in. It’s a social experience that offers a host of variety of emotional touch points. The Audrey Hepburn dress, the back to tippies. mean, it’s duh, it’s obvious, right? We used to say retail is theater. I I’ve heard that for 50 years.

But it is, but it’s a matter of defining what that means. Three-tail theater used to be visual merchandising. Well, you that’s like, you know, at the bottom of the toolbox. I it’s important, but it’s much, again, I think more deeper and richer as our lives are more complex and more seamless and more integrated with how we experience things.

Shelley E. Kohan (14:37)
So Kevin, let me ask you the hard question. Who’s not getting it?

Kevin Roche (14:42)
Well, you know, I hate to beat up on the American department stores, but you know, I live in California, but I’ve worked outside the U.S. for the last 25 years since I sold the design practice I co-founded in the end of 1999. And one of the reasons was there was no one doing really interesting things, especially retailers were, but that is kind of trend has moved somewhat. I think that

You know, my heart, I mean, there are examples all over the world, but those who are just focused on a transactional business ⁓ without being transactional experts, I mean, you go to Amazon and it’s a transaction. There is an experience online, you know, we had to buy some padlocks last weekend on something in LA we needed, we need three padlocks.

We had one combination we couldn’t set. We had to cut it break it off. Long story short, we ordered padlocks. We got them two hours later. That’s an experience. That’s a transactional world-class experience. ⁓ So I think ⁓ if you’re just in a transactional business,

Shelley E. Kohan (15:48)
Yep, it is.

Kevin Roche (16:04)
You’re selling stuff nobody needs, you’re in tired buildings, lack of capital, short-term visions without boards or investment groups that are willing to make generational investments. Generational investments are beyond a CEO that lasts three, five years, takes a big salary and then retires. know, generational investments, ⁓ Balmarché is a generational investment. Los Samaritan is not working because…

Shelley E. Kohan (16:17)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Roche (16:34)
the chess on the chessboard moved after COVID, the Bon Marseille group has taken it over, they will make it work because they get that they’re in the hospitality and entertainment business ⁓ as much as they are in traditional retail. ⁓ So I think, ⁓ you know, and those are generational investments that go beyond any one individual and there’s patient money and

Shelley E. Kohan (16:38)
Bye!

Kevin Roche (16:58)
and a commitment to an emotional and financial commitment to these generational ideas that are constantly evolving and changing. I think Tiffany is a generational investment.

Shelley E. Kohan (17:13)
Yeah. So one of the other things that you and I have talked about, which I think is really important, and we should have a conversation about it because traditionally when we look at retail and when retailers look at themselves, they measure things with very, I don’t know, rigid KPIs, I would say.

So I know you talk about and you have a passion for what you call, you know, measure what matters. But in today’s world where we have this plethora of data collection, integration tools, the growth of AI, our ability for mass, mass computation capabilities, the measurements can actually change. So we’ve always been tied to this, you know, sales growth. And, you know, there isn’t, there’s no such thing as infinite growth.

Kevin Roche (17:31)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shelley E. Kohan (17:59)
We always are looking at year over year sales. We’re looking at, you know, same store sales. We’re looking at, you know, ROA. Like, how should we be measuring retail?

Kevin Roche (18:05)
Yeah.

Well, I think I’m going to touch on one thing and I’ll get into the core of the question. I think one of the challenges the US had because of, and I think China somewhat, but they’re pulling back from it, because of scale is scaling. How many stores need more growth? Right? And I think one of the good things you see with Northland’s Blue Weed does it closing stores is a good thing. know, shrink to regrow and regrow doesn’t necessarily mean more real estate. ⁓

more square footage doesn’t mean it’s more sales. The old merchants would say, I need more space, they put it in the Excel sheet, it means more sales. Take out the low margin stuff, put in the high margin stuff, you know, and when you have it, it’s a boring business. This whole idea, which I think came from PearlswaterhouseCoopers, I found it in an article that they wrote.

eight, 10 years ago about ROE, return on experience. And I’ll describe it as, and it requires a different metric. I think with the analytical tools today, with technology, it’s much easier to measure behavioral patterns and time spent and so forth. had store trackers in the group where you can count people and you

transactions and you can do that simple thing. But here’s the story. Bon Marché, Paris. I spent 2010, 2012 settings working with the in-house team. Patrice set stage for the masking plant and then led the design team for the Grand Pisserie and a number of things, the big moves that the group did there. Patrice was going beyond.

generational idea, know, visual merchandising, know, and Christmas campaigns and back to school or holiday, you know, and creating 12-month-a-year events.

And again, have a concert in the store, the entire atrium space taken down by 8 p.m. They have four or five hundred people come in for a concert or a culture exhibition. It goes well into the evening. There’s no way of measuring whether those four or five hundred people are going to convert to sales in the store.

You know, they have their data. They can say, we invest, you know, half a million dollars or euros on this concert, whatever the number is, I don’t know, you know, are we going to get a return on that? You know, that’s hard cost. That’s right out of profit. There’s no way of measuring it. But they believe so deeply in this being socially relevant and culturally relevant.

Shelley E. Kohan (20:21)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Roche (20:41)
that they’re in the entertainment business because they’re selling stuff nobody needs, right? That they’re a social attraction. And that’s what the Weston family, a lot of Weston’s dealing with suffrages. They tend to move away from that. But it requires courage to invest in these things that you can’t measure with the return. Remember, you and I are old enough to remember Neiman Marcus when Stanley Marcus had what’s called the Fortnite.

Shelley E. Kohan (20:51)
Mm-hmm.

my gosh, yes,

of course.

Kevin Roche (21:08)
The fort

lies were cultural events that brought their core customers into the store. ⁓ The famous Christmas catalog book, I still have them, right? As companies move the way from editing out these what I’ll call professional managers, editing out, you know,

Shelley E. Kohan (21:19)
Of course. Yeah.

Kevin Roche (21:30)
expense that couldn’t directly relate to sales turnover or profit, they lost the soul of what made these brands socially relevant. So when you talk about the new metric and the return on experience, there are many, many ways to measure it. There’s not a particular formula. I don’t think what works at Bummer Shea can work at Neiman Marcus or

Shelley E. Kohan (21:41)
It’s so true.

Hmm.

Kevin Roche (21:55)
for harrids or works for salvages or works for restoration hardware, they find their way. It’s their strategic thinking, the principles, the understanding of human behavior and the speed of which these changes are happening and the ability to invest in generational evolution. mean, I think for me that will be the story of Bloomingdale’s. If they’re doing better today than…

and succeeding or getting better results at the expense of sacks and the debacle sacks and demons. Good for them. But will the board and the people who control purse rings allow generational investment? Patrice has been doing what he started since 2010, 2011. We’re 2025, right? It’s taken, I think it’s fair to say, at least 10 years to evolve one store.

Shelley E. Kohan (22:45)
Mm.

Kevin Roche (22:48)
Okay? And bundles of millions at a time in terms of capital expense. So I think that’s this idea of return on experience. I don’t think it’s measured by a quarter.

Shelley E. Kohan (22:50)
That seems like a lifetime in our world.

Yeah.

I love that and I’m gonna…

I love that and I’m going to give you even bigger throwback. When I started in retail in ⁓ Bloomingdale’s, I worked during the Marvin Traub era and that was my entry into retail and kept me very engaged. mean, that’s exactly the Stanley Marcus, that whole experience.

Kevin Roche (23:18)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. mean,

you know, the restaurants in Lexington Avenue, you know, the B way was a buzz. I was in the store recently, the furniture floor used to be Barbara Darcy, you know, it was a lifestyle experience. Again, restoration hardware, right? Lifestyle experience. So I think, I think, you know, we could, I don’t want to really dwell in that.

Shelley E. Kohan (23:36)
Yeah

Kevin Roche (23:52)
because it’s easy to beat up on these things. But I think it’s important to reflect on these. The Dior store, the new Dior flagship on Avenue Montaigne. I’ve been there three times now. The last, I was in Paris just thinking about, I don’t know, four or five weeks ago when I was in London at the same time. And I went by in a car or taxi and pouring down rain, 75 to 100 people waiting in line.

Shelley E. Kohan (23:54)
Yeah.

Kevin Roche (24:22)
umbrellas to get into the museum and you pay. Then there’s a cafe. Then there’s a great gift shop. Justin Jason is the new flagship. Two restaurants, private salons, apartments. ⁓ It is a cultural experience. ⁓ Now can you do that in every store around the world? Probably not. You don’t need to.

But it’s the same message as restoration. They’re following the same, I’m gonna call it game plan or formula, because it’s not. They’re reacting to the way customers are evolving. ⁓ I use an example, I’m a Porsche guy. Porsche gets it. You go to the Porsche driving experiences, you make reservations for lunch, you make reservations for dinner. When we’re in South SoCal in Southern LA, we’ll go there for dinner.

It’s cool. You know, like you go to Thailand, right? You have boutiques. ⁓ So it’s, it’s, that’s where, you know, this idea of everything is blurry and hospitality companies, ⁓ you know, Recruzo, you know,

Shelley E. Kohan (25:20)
Yeah. All right.

yes,

I love his, all his developments.

Kevin Roche (25:37)
Yeah, invited me out

to the Rosewood Marimar, which he developed, the Rosewood manages it. And the idea was, Kevin, I want to put more luxury in here. So I went as a guest. We spayed three days. We made reservations in Montecito and Santa Barbara. Never left the property in three days. And today I went back just in August. You have a Laura Piani, have a Bruno Cuccinelli, you have a Chanel under construction, you have a Dior shop.

And again, it’s a retail destination, it’s a hospitality destination, you multiple concept restaurants so you can go there and have dinner, you can stay, you know. And again, the idea of hospitality, and you might say retail, is capture, or wallet.

Shelley E. Kohan (26:26)
Right. I want to ask you, no, I want to ask you, but I know we only have a few minutes left, but I want to mention two things. One is, we’re talking about, you know, very high level luxury environments, but that doesn’t have to translate luxury down. I mean, all retailers can take some part of this. So the good example is the Tommy Bahama versus the Porsche, right? So it’s not just exclusive to luxury environments, although we’re giving a lot of those examples.

Kevin Roche (26:27)
So I understand.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Shelley E. Kohan (26:54)
But I do want to ask you about mixed use space for a second. So mixed use space has been very popular and there’s some that have been like hits like Columbus Circle to me is a hit in New York City. It just is very thriving. It’s busy. It’s fun. People enjoy going there. And then you have Hudson Yards, which is, I don’t know, kind of a mess. I don’t really get energized when I go there. What makes a hit? What makes a mess? I mean, what’s going on with mixed use space?

Kevin Roche (26:58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, mean, I always think everything is mixed use. And again, I don’t think it’s for me. Like, you know, I think that the problem with Hudson Yard is that in the US, generally speaking, the gross generalization, people don’t shop vertically. They will in Hong Kong, you know, but the US, it’s different. Now, will they do that in New York?

was LBMH. We would go to a 20th floor of a restaurant or eighth floor restaurant or it’d be towers with just restaurants on every floor. People will move vertically because it’s spatial issues. I think the problem there was a number of things. I mean you spent how many millions on this monolithic attraction by is it Chipperfield or Heatherwick, Thomas Heatherwick. You know why not, why, that should have been in the Adrian space.

Shelley E. Kohan (28:15)
Right.

Kevin Roche (28:16)
Where the attraction, if it’s an architectural, experiential attraction, put it in the building, not outside the building. I think these marble hallways of just leasing agents, leasing boxes, is not so interesting and boring. The most interesting mixed uses are happening in Asia. I was in Korea in May at a conference and I toured the new Hyundai.

500,000 square feet of net retail space. Is it a mall? Yes. Is it mixed use? Yes. Is it a department store? Yes. Is it a destination for restaurants, food hall, food market, like a Bomber Street, Grand Prix, Serres? Yes. It’s all those things. And the typologies, you can’t tell where a mall begins and where a department store ends. And there’s a hotel or so forth. Shinsegae, Gundam, another 500,000 plus net retail.

Shelley E. Kohan (29:06)
Mmm.

Kevin Roche (29:16)
niche use space of everything that you consider from hospitality, hotels, fitness centers, all levels of retail, food markets, restaurants, etc. It’s niche use. I think the problem with something like Hudson Yard, it’s almost an architectural…

vanity project, then it is really focusing with serious people around having humility to realize that big budget architecture isn’t necessarily the solution.

Shelley E. Kohan (29:57)
Right. I think the other thing that makes mixed use space is very interesting is really cultivating current consumer trends. So for example, I’ve seen pickleball courts in mixed use spaces. And that’s like the hottest thing that consumers want to do. So being able to pivot and ⁓ address consumer shifts in behavior I think is important as well. Annie? ⁓

Kevin Roche (30:07)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, and I’m

an architect and designer and I love to do architecture and design, but it’s only one tool in the toolbox. And if that overpowers the content, the meaning, know, take print on in New York, you know, there’s a complex formula of how all these things go together. And it’s not formulaic in one site versus the other. ⁓

Shelley E. Kohan (30:35)
Yes.

Kevin Roche (30:47)
necessarily, it doesn’t translate. They’re very, very site-specific and very, very almost market sector-specific. But mixed use, I think, you know, everything is, think, use. There’s a project in Texas I’ve been… ⁓

and a firm that did some consulting with is doing this. It’s a health care facility. It’s Texas Medical Center in Houston. They’re building a separate building to house 120,000 square feet of retail, services, fitness club, concept restaurants, not your hospital cafeteria, you know, because they have thousands and thousands of people a day and open to the community.

Shelley E. Kohan (31:36)
Yeah.

Kevin Roche (31:36)
airports

are becoming mixed-use destinations. Look at the TWA branded hotel at JFK. I mean, I’ve talked about the airport industry. That’s a whole other industry that the same challenges are emerging where they have captured traffic anywhere from 10 to 50 million people a year go through these airports and they’re captured and they’re quickly becoming mixed-use destinations.

Shelley E. Kohan (31:40)
That’s great.

That’s right. And Kevin, that’s a whole nother podcast right there. We should talk about travel retail. Have you back on talk about travel retail. Any closing thoughts?

Kevin Roche (32:07)
That is.

You know, yeah, think, you know what, think, and again, you know, as a consultant sometimes, you when I was on the consultant side versus client side, I’d it takes a great client to do great work. It takes inspired leadership. And I’m really ⁓ like these few big ideas of generational success, measuring based on generational success. You know, I mean,

A good president of United States can’t do much in three years because the fourth year they’re running, right? A CEO can’t turn around a complicated business in two or three years. It’s generational, know? Patrice now has really made Bon Marche or Shea one of the most talked about, best in class examples of social retail, and it’s taken time and patience and learning.

of what works, doesn’t work. And I think that is important. And an authentic long-term vision, ⁓ that is just not gimmicks. And an authentic can be made up, like the Ralph Lauren story or the Restoration Hard Work, but it’s so committed and so rigorously and vigorously supported around a set of non-negotiables that it becomes authentic.

Shelley E. Kohan (33:31)
love that. Thank you, Kevin, so much. It’s such a pleasure having you on. can’t wait for our next conversation.

Kevin Roche (33:35)
Likewise.

Likewise. Well, think about it. We can do something on airports because I told you I’m speaking, I’m doing a keynote speech in Hong Kong at Asian Pacific Travel Retail Association conference in December on this very topic of airport sales are falling, but travel is going up.

Shelley E. Kohan (33:56)
Excellent. Would love to have you back.

Kevin Roche (33:58)
Thank you, good to see you Shelley.

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How to Get a Better Seat at the Table https://therobinreport.com/how-to-get-a-better-seat-at-the-table/ Fri, 03 Oct 2025 04:01:00 +0000 https://therobinreport.com/?p=98583 Retail Unwrapped Podcast Art 19Here’s a surprising fact: A workplace revolution is underway and fundamentally reimagining how ergonomics drives productivity and employee retention. With mandates of returns to office, companies are discovering that outdated workspace designs are accelerating turnover.]]> Retail Unwrapped Podcast Art 19

Here’s a surprising fact: A workplace revolution is underway and fundamentally reimagining how ergonomics drives productivity and employee retention. With mandates of returns to office, companies are discovering that outdated workspace designs are accelerating turnover. Progressive organizations leverage ergonomic innovation as a competitive weapon. Join Shelley and Bob King, Founder and CEO of iconic workplace solutions company, Humanscale, as they discuss how remote work fundamentally shifted workers’ expectations about their physical work environment demanding dramatically superior workplace experiences. Workplace wellness has been transformed from a nice-to-have perk into a non-negotiable expectation. Learn why 96 percent of workers can’t properly use their office chairs and how smart executives are turning workplace design into a competitive advantage.

Special Guests

Bob King, Founder and CEO of Humanscale

Shelley E. Kohan (00:01.858)
Hi everybody and thanks for joining our weekly podcast. I’m Shelley Cohen and I am very excited to welcome Bob King, who is the founder and CEO of Human Scale. Welcome Bob.

Robert King (00:12.911)
Thanks, Shelley. It’s good to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Shelley E. Kohan (00:16.364)
I’m so excited to share your story because back 40 years ago, you saw a rise in workplace injuries due to the arrival of computers and you set out specifically to change the landscape of workplace well-being. So your company, Human Scale, is the pioneer of ergonomics in the office and now you’re the leader in ergonomics wherever work happens. In fact, some people refer to Human Scale as the apple of office furniture.

because you focus on innovative engineering and ease of use. So it’s great to have you here.

Robert King (00:51.971)
Yeah, thanks. It’s great to be here and I love talking about nothing better than ergonomics. So thanks.

Shelley E. Kohan (00:57.166)
I think it’s a really important time for the industry too. So we have hybrid work, which really has blown up since COVID. We have this focus on wellness. And now one of the big mandates out there is the return to office mandates, which quite frankly, I’m not so sure it’s gonna be a long-term sticking mechanism of mandating everyone return to five days a week. I don’t believe the mandates will work.

And for those employees who do return to the office full time, their workplace expectations have vastly changed since 2019.

Robert King (01:34.521)
Yeah, I know that’s a really important topic. More more companies are saying their folks have to come into the office. Initially, a lot of people thought it would be great if they just stayed home. They could save all these real estate costs and so on. But they realized that not having people together had a really negative impact on a lot of things, on creativity, on the ability of people to collaborate. Companies, what are companies, essentially? They’re just groups of

of people with interpersonal relationships and it’s hard to have those relationships when folks are remote. And so no, there’s been a big trend to get everybody back. I personally think it’ll continue. I think we’ll see more people coming back to the office than now. Right now, on average, people are back in the office about three days a week, depending, it varies on coast to coast and so on in industry. But I think that’ll improve. I don’t think we’ll ever.

back to a five-day work week though again. That’s, I don’t think that’s happening for better or for worse.

Shelley E. Kohan (02:39.182)
Well, you and I are agreement on that one. I agree. I don’t think that’s going to happen. So tell me a little bit about the demand for ergonomically correct chairs and office furniture. Has the demand risen?

Robert King (02:51.717)
The demand has risen for sure, but it’s risen in different places. If there are fewer people in the office on any given day, you need less stuff in the office. So the office market has actually taken a bit of a hit, but there’s more workstations, there’s more ergonomic chairs in the world today than there were pre-pandemic. It’s just that those workstations are in people’s homes.

And so the market has expanded, the expansion occurred in folks’ homes, which is interesting because during the pandemic, when people were all of a sudden at home, it was rather interesting in that we pioneered ergonomics in the office for whatever, 40 years now, right? And we’ve made great strides in the office. When computers first showed up in the office, it caused mayhem.

you put the computer in the corner of their desk as they were crt’s and and they would end up looking in into the writer to the left hundreds of times a day and and everyone had these neck problems and then they had back issues from hunching over and they even at risk issues and we’ve made great progress in the office and addressing those things but then people went home and they were working on on laptops uh… you know maybe twelve or thirteen inch displays attached to it

a that might be a 10-inch keyboard and they put it on a fixed work surface. Maybe their table, maybe their kitchen table and sat in it. God only knows what kind of chair they’re sitting in, which is very different than the office. that caused a whole new set of problems, which we hadn’t seen since the 80s when people first encountered computers. So it was rather an interesting time.

Shelley E. Kohan (04:45.633)
That’s so interesting. think the other challenge will be for those companies that are having workers come back to the office and using what we call shared space, so shared desk space, office space. That’s got to be a challenge because ergonomically I might need one set of, you know, office tools and furniture, but someone who’s sharing a desk with me might need something else.

Robert King (05:09.477)
Well, yeah, mean, people now everything is agile. So an office that has a thousand employees might only have, you know, 600 workstations because not everybody’s in at any given time. Of course, on Tuesday and Wednesday, maybe everyone comes in and then there’s not enough workstations. Then everyone piles into the meeting rooms and uses the meeting rooms as a workstation, which is not ideal.

which is a separate topic. Meeting rooms are changing. Meeting rooms need to change. Their function is changing, but that’s a separate topic. But what’s interesting is that folks come to the office and now they’re able to work on height adjustable desks so they can stand a little bit. They have 40-inch displays that are on monitor arms so they can adjust the display so it’s comfortable for them at the right height and depth and so on.

ergonomic chairs, which is very different from what they were used to at home. so, so now I think folks are realizing that being in the office in that environment is actually quite nice. And it’s that sort of thing that tends to bring people into the office. The fact that it is so much better. Interestingly too though, the idea is that you’ll sit in a different desk and sit in a different chair every day.

And so that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s rather interesting in that, in the, before the pandemic, you would sit in an ergonomic chair that had all kinds of manual controls that you had to operate. If you wanted to adjust it to your weight and you’d adjust the lumbar support. And it’s very interesting. No one actually did that. No one actually knew how to do that. People just sat in these chairs and there’s data on this that, that

from like Cornell did a big study, found that something like 96 % of office workers didn’t know how to do something as basic as lean back in their chair, which is not great. At a human scale, we design things that are super easy to use. So we pioneered ease of use and chairs that you can use without thinking about it. this whole move to agile workplace meant that

Shelley E. Kohan (07:14.571)
That’s crazy.

Robert King (07:33.561)
I mean, theoretically you could adjust your chair, but it would take some time. Now you’re sitting in a different chair and a different desk every day. So ease of use has become really important in the office. We always thought it was hugely important, but now it’s obvious that it’s hugely important. So that’s a big change in the office. All the office furniture companies are coming out with chairs and tables that are really easy to use.

Shelley E. Kohan (07:54.221)
you

Robert King (08:02.949)
which has been a big trend over the last couple of years, which we think is good. It’s a very healthy trend.

Shelley E. Kohan (08:08.608)
That’s great. The other thing, Bob, I love about Human Scale is that you are very, very focused on sustainability. And so you’re doing a lot with solar powered factories, zero waste certification. So tell us a little bit about some of that work you’re doing in terms of sustainability from the production side.

Robert King (08:26.885)
Robert King (08:31.183)
Well, on the production side, on every side, but production is usually particularly important. It’s interesting, I think, in that consumers are more aware of things today. Transparency is more important. Actually, I’m going to, can I interrupt you for one sec? I’ve been, Matt.

I get emails when I get an email it makes it comes up pops up and makes a noise.

Robert King (09:05.573)
Let me turn that off, because I think that might show up. That might show up, I keep getting these emails.

Shelley E. Kohan (09:07.5)
Hi.

Robert King (09:28.973)
Okay. There we are, sorry.

Shelley E. Kohan (09:32.352)
No, that’s good. Do want me to restate the question or you just want to go into the answer? Okay.

Robert King (09:34.245)
Yeah, yeah, you know, you better restate it because I was distracted as usual.

Shelley E. Kohan (09:40.02)
Okay, no worries. So Bob, one of the things I love about Human Scale is like you’re very focused on sustainability. You do a lot with solar powered factories, you have zero waste certification. So tell us a little bit about the work that you’ve been doing in terms of sustainability and production.

Robert King (09:58.895)
Yeah, on the operation side, which is kind of the heart of a company when it comes to sustainability, we’ve always felt that we need to be the leader in our industry. Because if we lead, other folks will be encouraged to follow. So we’ve done a number of things on the production side. All of our factories globally get the majority of their power from solar, which is on the roofs of all of our buildings.

All of our facilities have rainwater capture. The majority of water we use is captured from rain. All of our facilities are zero waste to landfill certified. We’re the only company in our industry that has even one factory that’s zero waste certified. And so we’ve done a lot on the operation side. We do…

a lot of our own production. So we do our own injection molding, our own die casting in-house, which has a huge impact on the carbon footprint of our products, because we don’t have to transport things all over the place. And the equipment we use is the latest and very efficient, it uses less power. So we’ve done a number of things on that side just to make us better for the environment. We believe that

Ultimately, as an organization, it’s our obligation to leave the planet better off. The trend has been, and what everyone talks about, is doing less harm. But ultimately, there’s no future for any of us if we all do less harm. We ultimately have to actually leave the planet better off. And we’ve made a number of strides in that direction. We’re not there yet, but we’ve made a number of strides to get there.

Shelley E. Kohan (11:53.314)
Well, I applaud you in your efforts and thank you so much. It’s a great way to look at it. It’s not just about doing no harm, but really being more proactive. So thank you for your efforts there.

Robert King (12:05.091)
No, we’ve always cared deeply about the environment. I grew up as a kid in the woods and streams and rivers, and it’s just a part of who we are, which I think is usually important to me, but it’s also really important to everyone who works here. think people take great pride in being with a company that’s very, very committed to things. sorry. No, I think…

Shelley E. Kohan (12:28.065)
So No, no, go ahead.

Robert King (12:32.259)
having values and having principles that you stand for is very important to the folks who work here. I think it’s surprisingly important, which has been wonderful for me to see.

Shelley E. Kohan (12:45.773)
That’s fantastic. Let me ask you a question about consumerism. So on the fashion side of the industry, consumers say that they want sustainable products, but when they’re looking at a pair of jeans and one is sustainable, but it’s $10 or $15 higher than the one that isn’t sustainable, they end up choosing the one that’s not sustainable. So part of it’s a cost factor. Tell me about, you know, furniture and office furniture, and are you seeing that same thing? Are you seeing something different?

Robert King (13:13.615)
We see the same thing, of course. There’s a certain part of the market, and it’s probably the majority of the market, that cares about sustainability. But if something is quite a bit more expensive than something else that’s not sustainable, they’ll make the lower cost selection. Not everyone, a lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck. A lot of people can’t afford to buy things that are super sustainable. And the truth is that

sustainability to do things in a sustainable way is generally more expensive. If it wasn’t more expensive, no one would have to worry. If it wasn’t more expensive, everyone would just do it automatically. But it is more expensive. The good news is that there’s a growing segment of our market, and I suspect every market, that cares deeply about sustainability and are making choices that are sustainable, even if they are a bit more expensive.

Shelley E. Kohan (13:53.953)
Right.

Robert King (14:13.829)
there’s a movement toward quality. I mean, we’ve seen that on the retail side. We’ve seen a lot of large retailers that sell low cost product, often the majority of which might come in from a country like China that doesn’t use sustainable practices. We’ve seen many of them fail or decline where high quality outlets have thrived. And so I think we’re not there yet, but more and more consumers are concerned about.

Shelley E. Kohan (14:25.997)
Mm-hmm.

Robert King (14:41.551)
quality and sustainability which go hand in hand.

Shelley E. Kohan (14:45.035)
No, that’s great. So I have to ask you this question. It’s the hottest question out there is regarding global trade, tariffs, policy changes. So a lot of these things that have been ongoing over the past year have really forced a lot of companies into design innovations and sourcing changes. So how are you coping with all this?

Robert King (15:07.231)
Everyone is struggling with that and not everyone I shouldn’t say that they the retail sector and the manufacturing sector are the two sectors that have that have been hit with with the tariffs Which is which is if you think about it, maybe not ideal the service sector the banking sector all those sectors are have been isolated from Well, what’s happened of course over many years manufacturers have

had more complex supply chains, more complex than ever. We tend to make parts in places that are really good at making those parts. And of course, the tariffs are driving people to make parts in the United States, because there’s tariffs globally. I there’s tariffs on virtually every country outside of the United States. And so that’s, it’s good and it’s bad.

It’s good in that it’s impacted countries that are not sustainable. So we have far less trade with countries like China, which would make very inexpensive things that are not sustainable in any way, that are harmful not only to the planet, but often to people working in factories there. And it’s reduced the reliance on those places, which is a healthy, really a healthily healthy thing for the planet. And I think a good thing.

And it’s been good for our industry because we don’t have these really cheap products coming in from places like China at low costs that are not sustainable. On the other hand though, it’s driving us to do silly things like do high labor content manufacturing in Ohio or New Jersey. So doing aluminum diecast and steel forging.

that are really tough, dirty jobs in the US doesn’t make any sense. There’s not enough folks that want those jobs. it would add a tremendous amount of cost. so those things, tariffs are driving them to the United States. They really belong in places like Mexico, where folks would love to have jobs like that.

Robert King (17:32.897)
and you can make things much more efficiently. And so it’s a double-edged sword. These tariffs have had some positive effects, but a lot of negative effects. And of course, by putting a significant financial burden on retailers and manufacturers, it’s kind of the opposite of what we’re trying to achieve with the tariffs in the first place.

Shelley E. Kohan (18:00.129)
Yeah, it’s been really difficult for a lot of different areas in our industry for sure. So tell us what’s the future of retail design when you kind of look at human scale. There’s luxury, there’s wellness, sustainability, but of course there’s productivity. So what does it look like down the road?

Robert King (18:17.925)
design in terms of our business or of retail? Yeah. Well, our business, you know, we’re obsessed with making things that are super easy to use, very minimal, very restrained visually, very high quality, and so on. We’ve mostly focused on the office. We’re getting into the home. We want to be the leader in high-end residential home office.

Shelley E. Kohan (18:21.643)
Yeah, both, both would be great, yeah.

Robert King (18:47.341)
and that’ll grow into different parts of the home as well. We’ve just launched a lounge chair that incorporates a work surface and actually can have multiple work surfaces. So you can work from a lounge chair and so on, number of different products that are kind of interesting. On the retail side, what we’re seeing on the retail store side, of course, is enhancing the experience of the shopper.

making it more convenient and easier to shop so that you can check out easily and not wait in long line. So there’s automatic checkout. And if you’re shopping, you can get information about products you’re shopping for. So if you’re in an aisle and you’re looking at, I don’t know, soup, you can have, there can be a technology there that displays, they can give you information about the different soups you’re looking at. they?

Shelley E. Kohan (19:18.391)
Yes.

Robert King (19:45.349)
Are they healthy or do they have certain ingredients? Are they okay for someone who has an allergy? That sort of thing is going to enhance the experience of the shopper and make shopping more efficient, which is better not only for the shopper, but for the organization. And human scale, we think there’s a really important place for us there. We’re the leader in supporting technology.

in the workplace, healthcare offices and so on. We want to be the leader in supporting technology in retail. So kiosks where people check out, supporting monitors and information displays in the stores. That sort of thing is really important to do it well. And of course, we do that sort of thing very well. So that’s an important new business for us and I think the future of retail as well.

Shelley E. Kohan (20:44.309)
I love that. So I want to ask you question about the lounge chair. Is that the different lounge chair? Is that the…

Robert King (20:48.901)
That’s the Differeant Lounge here designed by Niels Differeant, a long time collaborator with Human Scale. He passed away unfortunately in 2013, but we’ve been working, he worked on it for 10 years before he passed away and we’ve worked on it for what, 12 years since then. So it’s been a long road, but we finally launched it and it’s really cool.

Shelley E. Kohan (21:15.457)
What did you launch it this year?

Robert King (21:17.315)
We just launched it this year at the Neocon trade show in Chicago.

Shelley E. Kohan (21:21.239)
That’s fantastic, and it’s getting all kinds of design world buzz. So our listeners should definitely check it out. It is absolutely something consumers that check all those boxes, the comfort, the luxury, the productivity, right?

Robert King (21:35.961)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for the for the kind words on that. Yeah, absolutely.

Shelley E. Kohan (21:40.919)
So is there anything else before we leave that you would like to say, any closing comments or last kind of points that you’d like to make with our listeners?

Robert King (21:49.413)
The only thing that occurs to me is the issue of transparency. I’ve always been obsessed with transparency. I transparency is hugely important when it comes to consumers making decisions. think consumers are more sophisticated now than they ever were. Thank you to the internet. And I think that’s a really positive thing when it comes to sustainability and quality. Now people see through greenwashing.

where they didn’t before. now companies are not able to get away with just saying that they’re doing good things. They actually have to legitimately be doing good things. And I think in the future, more and more companies are going to be legitimately doing good things and are going to be moving toward a much healthier planet and much healthier people too. So, transparency is a very positive force that’s heading us in the right direction.

It’s one of our core values here.

Shelley E. Kohan (22:50.303)
I love that Bob. Thank you so much and thanks for joining us today. I’m sure our listeners learned a lot.

Robert King (22:55.717)
That’s nice of you to say, I hope so. Thank you, Shelley, I really enjoyed talking. All right.

Shelley E. Kohan (23:00.782)
Thank you.

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